[nagdu] My Apologies!

Thu Aug 9 21:13:24 UTC 2012

you're here by replying though!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] My Apologies!


> I'm sure glad I'm not participating in this thread.
>
> CL
>
> On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:14 PM, Michael Hingson wrote:
>
>> Marsha,
>>
>> Are you sure he is not losing it?  Let's see if he remembers to respond 
>> to
>> this thread.
>>
>> He has been confused about using the term "all y'all" in a sentence.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Marsha Drenth
>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 12:40 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] My Apologies!
>>
>> Ah! So this is what happens to Marion as he gets older and older. LOL I 
>> just
>> kidding. Marion your not old, nor losing it because of your age.
>>
>> *runs and hides*
>> Marsha drenthSent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:20 PM, "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Ah Marion,
>>>
>>> Is this what happens just after a birthday?  (grin)
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:10 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: [nagdu] My Apologies!
>>>
>>>       My message did not come out the way I meant it to read! What a
>>> difference a word makes! I meant to write, "I have never met an
>>> owner-trained dog that was *not* as well controlled as a program dog!"
>>> The way I originally wrote this message was cumbersome, so i editted
>>> it and really screwed up the meaning. In these days of political
>>> attack ads, I sure hope my words don't get disseminated far and wide,
>>> giving the impression I look upon owner-traners poorly. Those who
>>> really know my view on this issue will attest to the fact that I am
>>> fully supportive of owner-trainers! Sorry 'bout that, Chief!
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Pawpower Creations" <pawpower at cox.net>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 8:56 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>
>>>
>>>> Marion, I have never met a program trained dog that was as well
>>>> trained and well controlled as either mine or Rox'E'S owner trained
>>>> dogs.  In fact most of the owner trainers that we know have had
>>>> awesomely well behaved dogs and I would stack them up against any
>>>> program trained dog any day of the week.
>>>>
>>>> That is not to say that program trained dogs are not well controlled
>>>> or well trained, it is just that I haven't met any, or I should say I
>>>> have met very few which I could call well controlled.  I just don't
>>>> think it is fair to lump all owner trained dogs in to a group simply
>>>> because the experiences you have had with them have been less than
>>>> stellar.
>>>> JMHO
>>>>
>>>> Woofs and wags from the pawpower pack,
>>>>
>>>> Queen Bristol, Mill'E to the max, Rudy the dude in spirit,  baby girl
>>>> Laveau and Bayou Baylee.
>>>>
>>>> Pawpower Creations,  Products designed with you and your canine in 
>>>> mind.
>>>> Bob Blackner/Rox'e Homstad,
>>>> 504-312-2609
>>>> pawpower at cox.net
>>>> www.pawpowercreations.com
>>>>
>>>> And be sure and visit bayou Baylee's blog at:
>>>> www.pawpowercreations.com/wordpress
>>>> See you there.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I asked for strength that I might rear her perfectly; I was given
>>>> weakness that I might feed her more treats.
>>>>
>>>> I asked for good health that I might rest easy; I was given a
>>>> "special needs" dog that I might know nurturing.
>>>>
>>>> I asked for an obedient dog that I might feel proud; I was given
>>>> stubbornness that I might feel humble.
>>>>
>>>> I asked for compliance that I might feel masterful; I was given a
>>>> clown that I might laugh.
>>>>
>>>> I asked for a companion that I might not feel lonely; I was given a
>>>> best friend that I would feel loved.
>>>>
>>>> I got nothing I asked for,
>>>> But everything that I needed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Author unknown
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 6:28 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>>
>>>> Vanessa,
>>>>  I'm not sure if I agree with your message completely. I have never
>>>> met an owner-trained guide dog that was as well controlled as a program
>> dog.
>>>> NAGDU and the National Association of Blind veterans will work with
>>>> our General Counsel to create a better policy for the VA.
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Vanessa Lowery" <vlowery at dhr.state.md.us>
>>>> To: "the National Association of Guide Dog Users' 'NAGDU Mailing List"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 3:40 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> OK, that was a history lesson, for sure.  Thanks, jenine.  This also
>>>>> tells
>>>>
>>>>> me that GdUI's leadership is aware of the same issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> But this also speaks to the concerns that we all have about service
>>>>> dogs, be they program-trained or owner-trained.  The issue being
>>>>> control of the dog.  Sounds like some of the owner-trained dogs,
>>>>> though they may perform tasks, are not under good control, and that
>>>>> is what brought about this ruling.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Vanessa Lowery, LGSW
>>>>> Adult and Community Services Division Adult Services Screening Unit
>>>>> 410-853-3550
>>>>> VLowery at dhr.state.md.us
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com> 8/8/2012 3:27 PM >>>
>>>>> Buddy,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me try to explain this access issue. We have been dealing with
>>>>> this at GDF and our service dog organization, America's Vetdogs, for
>>>>> the past several years.
>>>>>
>>>>> The first thing to know about any Veterans Administration facility
>>>>> is that there is no overall governing structure that covers every
>>>>> aspect of its operation. Each facility director is allowed, under
>>>>> federal directive, to establish policies and procedures according to
>>>>> the needs, within certain parameters of course, of that facility.
>>>>>
>>>>> Veterans and staff alike have a saying: "If you've been to one VA
>>>>> facility, you've been to one VA facility."
>>>>>
>>>>> Although the Secretary in DC has given some general guidance, it is
>>>>> only that and each facility may establish its own rules for access.
>>>>>
>>>>> Remember, Veterans Administration facilities are federal and do not
>>>>> fall under the ADA. They fall under the Rehabilitation Act and even
>>>>> more specifically, under these guidelines established by the
>>>>> Secretary of Veterans Affairs.
>>>>>
>>>>> As the popularity of service dogs to assist with many disabling
>>>>> conditions has risen, a number of people have owner trained pets or
>>>>> acquired dogs not suitable for the work. These people know that
>>>>> their dogs are covered under the ADA and truly do believe that this
>>>>> coverage extends to the VA system.
>>>>> Just as with the general public, when any dog designated as a
>>>>> service animal does not behave properly, disrupts activities or
>>>>> poses a danger to people, it can be removed from the facility. This
>>>>> is true with the VA as well, but as with the general public, the VA
>>>>> has chosen to use a wide ranging punishment for a very specific
>>>>> issue. We receive calls at least once a week from VA facilities
>>>>> asking how to ban dogs who attack staff and other service dogs.
>>>>> According to the VA staff calling, most of these dogs are owner or
>>>>> privately trained. Some, however, as we point out, are indeed
>>>>> trained by accredited facilities. We advise the VA staff to first
>>>>> work with the individual to alert him/her that the dog's behavior is
>>>>> not appropriate and if it continues with no attempt to correct it,
>>>>> the dog can be banned from the facility. We also refer them to their
>>>>> facility's policy on service animal access, which may or may not
>>>>> state this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately, many veterans are also using service dogs as
>>>>> protection devices for personal safety which is not at all a
>>>>> function of the work service dogs are generally expected to do and
>>>>> is not allowed under the ADA or other access laws.
>>>>>
>>>>> In order to establish some kind of order in who is bringing dogs
>>>>> into VA facilities, many facilities have decided to adopt the
>>>>> standard that any service animal entering the facility must have
>>>>> been trained by an organization with either Assistance Dogs
>>>>> International (ADI) or International Guide Dog Federation (IGDF)
>>>>> credentials. Handlers who cannot show ID with the logos of either of
>>>>> these organizations and an associated training provider will not be
>>>>> allowed to take their service or guide dogs into the VA facility.
>>>>>
>>>>> You're probably thinking that people can just get these logos on
>>>>> line and make up ID cards. They could but ADI and IGDF are extremely
>>>>> strict about who and where their logos may be used and will seek
>>>>> whatever legal remedies appropriate when they discover misuse of
>>>>> their logos. If you have a guide dog school ID and your school is
>>>>> accredited by IGDF, chances are it bares that logo.
>>>>>
>>>>> This VA access standard generally has not touched the guide dog
>>>>> handlers much in the past but increasingly, the rule is being
>>>>> enforced more strictly so that guide dogs, once held separately by
>>>>> the VA in general in terms of access and provision of benefits, are
>>>>> now being included in a general service animal category and more
>>>>> closely scrutinized.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is truly one of those pendulum swings in access rights that
>>>>> happens when things get too out of control for an entity. We saw
>>>>> this in the July
>>>>> 2010 revision of the ADA's service animal definition and standards.
>>>>> The VA is following that general line with these regulations.
>>>>>
>>>>> I will not go into whether I think this is right or wrong as that is
>>>>> a whole other topic, but just to let you know, it is out there and
>>>>> it does affect many people seeking services from the VA.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are efforts in Congress already to change this guidance but
>>>>> some of those efforts are based on incorrect information and
>> assumptions.
>>>>>
>>>>> What can NAGDU do about this situation? One thing you can do that
>>>>> would be very helpful for those of us in organizations that work
>>>>> directly with the VA for our handlers is to ask your handlers who
>>>>> are using VA facilities, either as veterans or dependants, whether
>>>>> or not their access with their dogs has been questioned, challenged
>>>>> or denied within the past year. If so, please let me know privately.
>>>>>
>>>>> As I said, each VA facility is its own entity regarding how strictly
>>>>> the guidelines for service animals are enforced. Some facilities
>>>>> allow pets and therapy animals without question while others are
>>>>> extremely strict about showing ID for the service animal each time
>>>>> the person comes to the facility. It all depends on the experiences
>>>>> and attitude of the facility director and staff.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jenine Stanley
>>>>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>>>> http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Buddy Brannan
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 1:07 PM
>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>>>
>>>>> Someone just brought the following to my attention. What does this
>>>>> mean for owner/trained guide and service dogs? Moreover, what does
>>>>> this mean for the future of what constitutes a service dog?
>>>>>
>>>>> From
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://thomas.loc.gov/home/gpoxmlc112/h1627_enr.xml#toc-H547AD04B80A24
>>> ADCBB0
>>>>> 2C96CBF22D067
>>>>>
>>>>> SEC. 109. USE OF SERVICE DOGS ON PROPERTY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF
>>>>> VETERANS AFFAIRS.
>>>>> Section 901 is amended by adding at the end the following new
>> subsection:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "(f)(1) The Secretary may not prohibit the use of a covered service
>>>>> dog in any facility or on any property of the Department or in any
>>>>> facility or on any property that receives funding from the
>>>>> Secretary.
>>>>>
>>>>> "(2) For purposes of this subsection, a covered service dog is a
>>>>> service dog that has been trained by an entity that is accredited by
>>>>> an appropriate accrediting body that evaluates and accredits
>>>>> organizations which train guide or service dogs.".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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