[nagdu] My Apologies!
Cindy Ray
cindyray at gmail.com
Thu Aug 9 20:28:05 UTC 2012
I'm sure glad I'm not participating in this thread.
CL
On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:14 PM, Michael Hingson wrote:
> Marsha,
>
> Are you sure he is not losing it? Let's see if he remembers to respond to
> this thread.
>
> He has been confused about using the term "all y'all" in a sentence.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Marsha Drenth
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 12:40 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] My Apologies!
>
> Ah! So this is what happens to Marion as he gets older and older. LOL I just
> kidding. Marion your not old, nor losing it because of your age.
>
> *runs and hides*
> Marsha drenthSent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:20 PM, "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Ah Marion,
>>
>> Is this what happens just after a birthday? (grin)
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:10 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: [nagdu] My Apologies!
>>
>> My message did not come out the way I meant it to read! What a
>> difference a word makes! I meant to write, "I have never met an
>> owner-trained dog that was *not* as well controlled as a program dog!"
>> The way I originally wrote this message was cumbersome, so i editted
>> it and really screwed up the meaning. In these days of political
>> attack ads, I sure hope my words don't get disseminated far and wide,
>> giving the impression I look upon owner-traners poorly. Those who
>> really know my view on this issue will attest to the fact that I am
>> fully supportive of owner-trainers! Sorry 'bout that, Chief!
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Pawpower Creations" <pawpower at cox.net>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 8:56 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>
>>
>>> Marion, I have never met a program trained dog that was as well
>>> trained and well controlled as either mine or Rox'E'S owner trained
>>> dogs. In fact most of the owner trainers that we know have had
>>> awesomely well behaved dogs and I would stack them up against any
>>> program trained dog any day of the week.
>>>
>>> That is not to say that program trained dogs are not well controlled
>>> or well trained, it is just that I haven't met any, or I should say I
>>> have met very few which I could call well controlled. I just don't
>>> think it is fair to lump all owner trained dogs in to a group simply
>>> because the experiences you have had with them have been less than
>>> stellar.
>>> JMHO
>>>
>>> Woofs and wags from the pawpower pack,
>>>
>>> Queen Bristol, Mill'E to the max, Rudy the dude in spirit, baby girl
>>> Laveau and Bayou Baylee.
>>>
>>> Pawpower Creations, Products designed with you and your canine in mind.
>>> Bob Blackner/Rox'e Homstad,
>>> 504-312-2609
>>> pawpower at cox.net
>>> www.pawpowercreations.com
>>>
>>> And be sure and visit bayou Baylee's blog at:
>>> www.pawpowercreations.com/wordpress
>>> See you there.
>>>
>>>
>>> I asked for strength that I might rear her perfectly; I was given
>>> weakness that I might feed her more treats.
>>>
>>> I asked for good health that I might rest easy; I was given a
>>> "special needs" dog that I might know nurturing.
>>>
>>> I asked for an obedient dog that I might feel proud; I was given
>>> stubbornness that I might feel humble.
>>>
>>> I asked for compliance that I might feel masterful; I was given a
>>> clown that I might laugh.
>>>
>>> I asked for a companion that I might not feel lonely; I was given a
>>> best friend that I would feel loved.
>>>
>>> I got nothing I asked for,
>>> But everything that I needed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Author unknown
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 6:28 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>
>>> Vanessa,
>>> I'm not sure if I agree with your message completely. I have never
>>> met an owner-trained guide dog that was as well controlled as a program
> dog.
>>> NAGDU and the National Association of Blind veterans will work with
>>> our General Counsel to create a better policy for the VA.
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Vanessa Lowery" <vlowery at dhr.state.md.us>
>>> To: "the National Association of Guide Dog Users' 'NAGDU Mailing List"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 3:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>
>>>
>>>> OK, that was a history lesson, for sure. Thanks, jenine. This also
>>>> tells
>>>
>>>> me that GdUI's leadership is aware of the same issue.
>>>>
>>>> But this also speaks to the concerns that we all have about service
>>>> dogs, be they program-trained or owner-trained. The issue being
>>>> control of the dog. Sounds like some of the owner-trained dogs,
>>>> though they may perform tasks, are not under good control, and that
>>>> is what brought about this ruling.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Vanessa Lowery, LGSW
>>>> Adult and Community Services Division Adult Services Screening Unit
>>>> 410-853-3550
>>>> VLowery at dhr.state.md.us
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com> 8/8/2012 3:27 PM >>>
>>>> Buddy,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Let me try to explain this access issue. We have been dealing with
>>>> this at GDF and our service dog organization, America's Vetdogs, for
>>>> the past several years.
>>>>
>>>> The first thing to know about any Veterans Administration facility
>>>> is that there is no overall governing structure that covers every
>>>> aspect of its operation. Each facility director is allowed, under
>>>> federal directive, to establish policies and procedures according to
>>>> the needs, within certain parameters of course, of that facility.
>>>>
>>>> Veterans and staff alike have a saying: "If you've been to one VA
>>>> facility, you've been to one VA facility."
>>>>
>>>> Although the Secretary in DC has given some general guidance, it is
>>>> only that and each facility may establish its own rules for access.
>>>>
>>>> Remember, Veterans Administration facilities are federal and do not
>>>> fall under the ADA. They fall under the Rehabilitation Act and even
>>>> more specifically, under these guidelines established by the
>>>> Secretary of Veterans Affairs.
>>>>
>>>> As the popularity of service dogs to assist with many disabling
>>>> conditions has risen, a number of people have owner trained pets or
>>>> acquired dogs not suitable for the work. These people know that
>>>> their dogs are covered under the ADA and truly do believe that this
>>>> coverage extends to the VA system.
>>>> Just as with the general public, when any dog designated as a
>>>> service animal does not behave properly, disrupts activities or
>>>> poses a danger to people, it can be removed from the facility. This
>>>> is true with the VA as well, but as with the general public, the VA
>>>> has chosen to use a wide ranging punishment for a very specific
>>>> issue. We receive calls at least once a week from VA facilities
>>>> asking how to ban dogs who attack staff and other service dogs.
>>>> According to the VA staff calling, most of these dogs are owner or
>>>> privately trained. Some, however, as we point out, are indeed
>>>> trained by accredited facilities. We advise the VA staff to first
>>>> work with the individual to alert him/her that the dog's behavior is
>>>> not appropriate and if it continues with no attempt to correct it,
>>>> the dog can be banned from the facility. We also refer them to their
>>>> facility's policy on service animal access, which may or may not
>>>> state this.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, many veterans are also using service dogs as
>>>> protection devices for personal safety which is not at all a
>>>> function of the work service dogs are generally expected to do and
>>>> is not allowed under the ADA or other access laws.
>>>>
>>>> In order to establish some kind of order in who is bringing dogs
>>>> into VA facilities, many facilities have decided to adopt the
>>>> standard that any service animal entering the facility must have
>>>> been trained by an organization with either Assistance Dogs
>>>> International (ADI) or International Guide Dog Federation (IGDF)
>>>> credentials. Handlers who cannot show ID with the logos of either of
>>>> these organizations and an associated training provider will not be
>>>> allowed to take their service or guide dogs into the VA facility.
>>>>
>>>> You're probably thinking that people can just get these logos on
>>>> line and make up ID cards. They could but ADI and IGDF are extremely
>>>> strict about who and where their logos may be used and will seek
>>>> whatever legal remedies appropriate when they discover misuse of
>>>> their logos. If you have a guide dog school ID and your school is
>>>> accredited by IGDF, chances are it bares that logo.
>>>>
>>>> This VA access standard generally has not touched the guide dog
>>>> handlers much in the past but increasingly, the rule is being
>>>> enforced more strictly so that guide dogs, once held separately by
>>>> the VA in general in terms of access and provision of benefits, are
>>>> now being included in a general service animal category and more
>>>> closely scrutinized.
>>>>
>>>> This is truly one of those pendulum swings in access rights that
>>>> happens when things get too out of control for an entity. We saw
>>>> this in the July
>>>> 2010 revision of the ADA's service animal definition and standards.
>>>> The VA is following that general line with these regulations.
>>>>
>>>> I will not go into whether I think this is right or wrong as that is
>>>> a whole other topic, but just to let you know, it is out there and
>>>> it does affect many people seeking services from the VA.
>>>>
>>>> There are efforts in Congress already to change this guidance but
>>>> some of those efforts are based on incorrect information and
> assumptions.
>>>>
>>>> What can NAGDU do about this situation? One thing you can do that
>>>> would be very helpful for those of us in organizations that work
>>>> directly with the VA for our handlers is to ask your handlers who
>>>> are using VA facilities, either as veterans or dependants, whether
>>>> or not their access with their dogs has been questioned, challenged
>>>> or denied within the past year. If so, please let me know privately.
>>>>
>>>> As I said, each VA facility is its own entity regarding how strictly
>>>> the guidelines for service animals are enforced. Some facilities
>>>> allow pets and therapy animals without question while others are
>>>> extremely strict about showing ID for the service animal each time
>>>> the person comes to the facility. It all depends on the experiences
>>>> and attitude of the facility director and staff.
>>>>
>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>
>>>> Jenine Stanley
>>>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>>> http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Buddy Brannan
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 1:07 PM
>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU Mailing List
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>>
>>>> Someone just brought the following to my attention. What does this
>>>> mean for owner/trained guide and service dogs? Moreover, what does
>>>> this mean for the future of what constitutes a service dog?
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>>
>> http://thomas.loc.gov/home/gpoxmlc112/h1627_enr.xml#toc-H547AD04B80A24
>> ADCBB0
>>>> 2C96CBF22D067
>>>>
>>>> SEC. 109. USE OF SERVICE DOGS ON PROPERTY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF
>>>> VETERANS AFFAIRS.
>>>> Section 901 is amended by adding at the end the following new
> subsection:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "(f)(1) The Secretary may not prohibit the use of a covered service
>>>> dog in any facility or on any property of the Department or in any
>>>> facility or on any property that receives funding from the
>>>> Secretary.
>>>>
>>>> "(2) For purposes of this subsection, a covered service dog is a
>>>> service dog that has been trained by an entity that is accredited by
>>>> an appropriate accrediting body that evaluates and accredits
>>>> organizations which train guide or service dogs.".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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