[nagdu] Introduction and Questions

Wed Feb 1 00:45:40 UTC 2012

Brenda,

Yay for learning braille as an adult. I found the learning process 
frustrating as all get out, but once it clicked that I was reading with 
my fingers instead of my eyes, it was worth it!

Lyn, I heard the bit about adults can't learn braille because they can't 
feel the dots... Well, I did go through that period I couldn't feel my 
hands at all. But what I had discovered in my self-study before that was 
that my fingers needed to learn to feel the dots enough to distinguish 
them... So that took practice and patience, which I would rather have 
done as a kid when my brain and fingers both were more plastic and 
learning-friendly. /grin/

Anyway, thought I would mention that part since so many adults are told 
adults can't learn braille... Sigh. Turns out, many can. Who knew? /loll/

Tami

On 01/31/2012 04:30 PM, Brenda wrote:
> Well said Tami and marion.
>
> In addition, not only people with RP have trouble seeing. I have never
> had depth perception and in fact have fallen down stairs. No one even
> thought I needed a cane and I continued to survive in the sighted world
> as a second class citizen.
>
> When I finally took the step to get some mobility training, the
> instructor told me 'you have more vision than you realize' because I
> could walk in a straight line. It was in the winter so I could tell the
> difference between snow and pavement. Now grass and pavement is a little
> harder. I can see the confusion of a person with a drivers licence using
> a guide dog, but perhaps there is more to it than that and/or maybe they
> shouldn't even have had a license.
>
> It is very depressing that people with partial sight are slapped down by
> people with less visual acuity. Sometimes it is even people who have
> been in my shoes who devalidate me and my needs. Maybe I can see well
> one day and not another. Maybe Ican "see" in areas I travel alot as long
> as there are no obstacles. Maybe it depends on the daylight, sunlight,
> season and stress level.
>
> And if people with partial sight don't need guide dogs, maybe we don't
> need to learnBraille either.
>
> That said, I'm learning Braille and am glad to hear GDF and other
> schools are open to people with remaining vision based on the individual
> situation.
>
> I don't object to your concerns and question of people with partial
> sight using guide dogs Robert. However, the way you went about it was
> generalized and not very diplomatic.
>
> Brenda
>
>
>
>
> '
>
>
>
>
>
> On 1/30/2012 5:44 PM, Tami Kinney wrote:
>> Robert,
>>
>> Well, I have RP and have been legally blind since 1999. Had it not
>> been for my spouse, whom I finally had to just divorce for several
>> reasons, I would have applied for a guide then, once I learned cane
>> travel, which I ended up having to learn on my own. However, by the
>> numbers I did qualify. I needed a cane, thus I needed a dog.
>>
>> The one program that I did follow through with, just to see what
>> happened, decided somehow that I have really great vision and can read
>> street signs. Therefore, I do not need a guide dog, according to them.
>>
>> Um... First of all, that was certainly not true by 2006. Also, the
>> ability to read street signs -- even if I had, in fact, possessed that
>> ability -- seems to me pretty, um, something. Think about it.
>>
>> Still, I had decided by that point that I wasn't that interested in
>> putting up with that sort of attitude, and some things in my life had
>> changed. So I got a poodle puppy and trained her myself. She is now
>> 5.5 and an excellent working guide. I do not think of her as
>> self-trained but as owner-trained.
>>
>> I think it is fair to say that for me and my guide, the percentage of
>> program trained dogs over owner-trained dogs that cause problems for
>> us is, well, one hundred percent. I have met and worked around other
>> owner-trained dogs, but there has been zero problem because of either
>> dog. Every guide dog that has caused difficulty with my owner-trained
>> guide is program-trained by a certified trainer.
>>
>> When my dog was very young, she did have difficulty adjusting to being
>> around other dogs, so she did cause problems. We worked on that and
>> now she does not. The problems she had when she was young began at her
>> first exposure to other working guides. A program-trained dog growled
>> and lunged at her outside an elevator, then again in the elevator. A
>> short while later, that same dog repeated the behavior because we were
>> unable to avoid passing the pair. Another program-trained dog at that
>> same short event brought his handler close enough that the man would
>> have tripped over her if she hadn't jumped out of the way. He nearly
>> tripped over me another time walking by where I was sitting.
>>
>> So, she was pretty uptight around other guides for quite a while, and
>> it took a lot of work with her to keep her from being ruined, since I
>> won't have a working guide that is that reactive to other guides. So
>> those first program-trained guides we met nearly cost me all the
>> training I'd put into my dog. They caused me and my owner-trained pup
>> way more difficulty than any pet dog has. We made it through, and
>> Mitzi is fine around other guide and service dogs now, but it took a
>> lot of work for both of us to get there. For a long time, I thought we
>> wouldn't.
>>
>> She has saved my life many times. Not anyone else did that by giving
>> her to me already trained. Just her, following the training I gave her
>> and her own brains and good judgment.
>>
>> As a partial, I hear all the time when it comes to resources of all
>> types that my really great vision means I don't need whatever it is
>> and that by just asking I am somehow taking it from "blind people who
>> need it."
>>
>> This has cost me well into the 6 figures by now.
>>
>> I don't have really great vision, not by any vision exam I have had
>> really since before I crossed that magical numerical line that
>> qualified me as legally blind.
>>
>> It sounds to me, though, like you think I shouldn't get a guide dog
>> because I don't really need one. Or adaptive technology to return to
>> my vocation, I suppose.
>>
>> Is there anything else I don't deserve in your opinion? /evil grin/
>>
>> I understand that it can be difficult to rectify differences. However,
>> it was the guide dog program that told you you just wanted the dog for
>> a pet. It was not a partial or an owner-trainer.
>>
>> Tami
>>
>> On 01/30/2012 01:46 PM, Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov wrote:
>>> Hi Marion:
>>>
>>> My wife has RP so I know all that. I can only say how I felt when a
>>> school in 1980 or 1981 had the balls to tell me I wanted the dog as a
>>> pet made me feel. I also think (I'm an old fox with a lot of years and
>>> experience now) that I saw a dog guide user with a day time drivers
>>> license. I'm not buying any of that but I'm just me:0). When Pilot
>>> took me on at 19 they basically saved my life. I'm a fast traveler and
>>> was a top notch cane user who taught others that were blind, but, I went
>>> to many many different places and knew in my heart that I needed four
>>> legged help.
>>>
>>> I can tell you many instances where "self trained dogs caused me a lot
>>> of problems, but, I think it is possible to train your own dog, if your
>>> a certified trainer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: "Marion Gwizdala"<blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
>>> Dog Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Date: 01/30/2012 03:16 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>> Sent by: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Robert,
>>> Individuals with retinitis pigmentosa may have fairly good acuity
>>> but
>>> their fields of vision may be seriously compromised. narrow fields of
>>> vision
>>> can distort depth perception so that individuals may not realize they
>>> are
>>> standing at the top of a flight of stairs or at the threshhold of a
>>> loading
>>> dock. Furthermore, since the periphery of the retina contains a high
>>> concentration of rods cells that are responsible for sight in dimly lit
>>> areas and the ability to see moving objects, those affected by this
>>> condition benefit from using a dog to travel safely under those
>>> conditions.
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From:<Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 2:30 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm not sure why somebody with very high vision would need a dog guide
>>>> and have said so in school. Somebody and bodies were in training with
>>>> me and could see faces, identify cars and see the surrounding area
>>>> pretty clearly for well over 50 yards? I'm an honest person and didn't
>>>> hesitate to ask why the hell they were getting a dog. Answers off
>>> list
>>>> only but I was not happy& hope they didn't get a dog guide.
>>>>
>>>> There are waiting lists for people who are very low partials&/or
>>>> totally blind to get a dog guide so its not just a cut and dry "get a
>>>> dog". there is a evaluation& process for reasons mentioned above.
>>>>
>>>> Hope I don't come across as brash but I have very strong feelings
>>> about
>>>> this topic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: "Larry D. Keeler"<lkeeler at comcast.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
>>>> Dog Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Date: 01/30/2012 12:58 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>> Sent by: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good choice! For me it was a case of the more the merrier!.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Melissa Pasron"<fuzzylucky2021 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 10:47 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for giving me a different perspective. I am really trying
>>> to
>>>>
>>>>> weigh the options before I make a decision. My current deciding
>>> factor
>>>> is
>>>>> that I currently have a pet dog and I don't know if I'll be ready to
>>>> do
>>>>> all the grooming and caring for two dogs. Not to mention if a guide
>>>> dog is
>>>>> right for me at the current moment. I think I'll just sit on the
>>> issue
>>>> for
>>>>> a while and think about it. I don't want to go rushing into a
>>> decision
>>>>
>>>>> without giving it a lot of thought.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 30, 2012, at 9:37 AM, "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)"
>>>>> <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In making your decision, think about what you most want to do when
>>>> you
>>>>>> return home from being out someplace. Do you want to spend time
>>>> grooming
>>>>>> and caring for a dog, and doing it every single day, or would you
>>>> rather
>>>>>> do something else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I worked two dogs. Then I had my daughter and found that all I
>>> wanted
>>>> to
>>>>>> do was hang out with her, especially after being at work all day.
>>>> Taking
>>>>>> care of the dog became more of a chore then something I enjoyed.
>>> And,
>>>> at
>>>>>> times it became very difficult to balance, baby wanted to eat or be
>>>> held,
>>>>>> dog needed to be brushed, you can't do both at the same time. And,
>>>> while
>>>>>> an obvious answer may be "get help with the baby" I enjoyed and
>>> still
>>>>
>>>>>> enjoy taking care of her.
>>>>>> Think about how you'll feel when the dog wakes you up to go potty,
>>>> will
>>>>>> you be okay with it or will it mentally wear you out as "one more
>>>> thing I
>>>>>> have to do".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What are your hobbies and are they comptible with a guide dog? You
>>>> can
>>>>>> always leave a cane, and a cane is easy to replace. Not true with a
>>>> dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have had a couple access issues. I can tell you that when that
>>>> happens,
>>>>>> the very first thought that goes through your head is "This really
>>>> f***s
>>>>>> up my plans".
>>>>>> I'll add that I like dogs. They are neat animals, and I think have
>>>> much
>>>>>> to teach us. At times I miss having one. On a day when the sun is
>>>>>> shinging, and it's 65 degrees, I'd love to take a guide dog and walk
>>>> on a
>>>>>> bike path, as the feeling of you being in synch with a dog is
>>>> amazing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right now, I can't deal with the 24/7 nature of a guide dog. I
>>> can't
>>>> do
>>>>>> it with a pet dog either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can bring a guide dog anywhere, but you also need to plan on
>>> that
>>>>
>>>>>> with food, water, rest, appropriate supervision, things like that.
>>>> It's
>>>>>> difficult to "just stay a bit longer" when you didn't plan on it and
>>>>>> don't have food for your dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, the answer is that it really depends. I offer my perspective
>>>> because
>>>>>> this list is made up of people who are currently using dogs and who
>>>> like
>>>>>> doing it. It would be useful for you and others to have a different
>>>>>> perspective.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf Of melissa padron
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:35 PM
>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am new to this list so I though I would just start off with an
>>>>>> introduction and then some questions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, first of all, my name is Melissa and although I am not a guide
>>>> dog
>>>>>> user I am a cane user. I'm in college pursuing a degree in
>>> psychology
>>>> and
>>>>>> I will be moving back to my hometown once I graduate. I'm considered
>>>>>> legally blind, so I do have vision.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because of the condition I have, I was not taught to use a cane
>>> until
>>>> my
>>>>>> senior year of high school. I actually had to fight in order to get
>>>> cane
>>>>>> lessons, but since then, I just about take my cane everywhere with
>>>> me. It
>>>>>> helps a lot more than using my vision and stressing my eyes....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, some questions:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not considering getting a guide dog now but I do want to keep
>>> it
>>>> as
>>>>>> an option if I decide that it would help me in my travels. So my
>>>> question
>>>>>> is, what was ultimately you deciding factor in getting a guide dog?
>>>>>> What are some advantages and disadvantages in using a guide dog?
>>>>>> For those of you who have vision, did you encounter problems with
>>> the
>>>>
>>>>>> guide dog schools saying that a guide dog would not benefit you
>>>> because
>>>>>> you have "too much" vision?
>>>>>> Ultimately, this is my greatest fear. I'm scared of encountering
>>>>>> criticism by guide dog schools and "blindness professionals" about
>>>>>> whether a guide dog would benefit me or not. A lot of people with my
>>>>>> condition function well without a cane or a dog so would this be
>>> used
>>>>
>>>>>> against me if I were to apply?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am looking forward to hearing your responses and advice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Melissa
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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