[nagdu] Quick Braille note was Re: Introduction and Questions

Wed Feb 1 01:02:01 UTC 2012

The Hadley program is awesome for learning Braille.  I never thought I 
could learn to feel the dots or tell one letter from the other.  The way 
they teach it my brain and fingers are connecting quite nicely.  Brenda

On 1/31/2012 7:45 PM, Tami Kinney wrote:
> Brenda,
>
> Yay for learning braille as an adult. I found the learning process 
> frustrating as all get out, but once it clicked that I was reading 
> with my fingers instead of my eyes, it was worth it!
>
> Lyn, I heard the bit about adults can't learn braille because they 
> can't feel the dots... Well, I did go through that period I couldn't 
> feel my hands at all. But what I had discovered in my self-study 
> before that was that my fingers needed to learn to feel the dots 
> enough to distinguish them... So that took practice and patience, 
> which I would rather have done as a kid when my brain and fingers both 
> were more plastic and learning-friendly. /grin/
>
> Anyway, thought I would mention that part since so many adults are 
> told adults can't learn braille... Sigh. Turns out, many can. Who 
> knew? /loll/
>
> Tami
>
> On 01/31/2012 04:30 PM, Brenda wrote:
>> Well said Tami and marion.
>>
>> In addition, not only people with RP have trouble seeing. I have never
>> had depth perception and in fact have fallen down stairs. No one even
>> thought I needed a cane and I continued to survive in the sighted world
>> as a second class citizen.
>>
>> When I finally took the step to get some mobility training, the
>> instructor told me 'you have more vision than you realize' because I
>> could walk in a straight line. It was in the winter so I could tell the
>> difference between snow and pavement. Now grass and pavement is a little
>> harder. I can see the confusion of a person with a drivers licence using
>> a guide dog, but perhaps there is more to it than that and/or maybe they
>> shouldn't even have had a license.
>>
>> It is very depressing that people with partial sight are slapped down by
>> people with less visual acuity. Sometimes it is even people who have
>> been in my shoes who devalidate me and my needs. Maybe I can see well
>> one day and not another. Maybe Ican "see" in areas I travel alot as long
>> as there are no obstacles. Maybe it depends on the daylight, sunlight,
>> season and stress level.
>>
>> And if people with partial sight don't need guide dogs, maybe we don't
>> need to learnBraille either.
>>
>> That said, I'm learning Braille and am glad to hear GDF and other
>> schools are open to people with remaining vision based on the individual
>> situation.
>>
>> I don't object to your concerns and question of people with partial
>> sight using guide dogs Robert. However, the way you went about it was
>> generalized and not very diplomatic.
>>
>> Brenda
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> '
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 1/30/2012 5:44 PM, Tami Kinney wrote:
>>> Robert,
>>>
>>> Well, I have RP and have been legally blind since 1999. Had it not
>>> been for my spouse, whom I finally had to just divorce for several
>>> reasons, I would have applied for a guide then, once I learned cane
>>> travel, which I ended up having to learn on my own. However, by the
>>> numbers I did qualify. I needed a cane, thus I needed a dog.
>>>
>>> The one program that I did follow through with, just to see what
>>> happened, decided somehow that I have really great vision and can read
>>> street signs. Therefore, I do not need a guide dog, according to them.
>>>
>>> Um... First of all, that was certainly not true by 2006. Also, the
>>> ability to read street signs -- even if I had, in fact, possessed that
>>> ability -- seems to me pretty, um, something. Think about it.
>>>
>>> Still, I had decided by that point that I wasn't that interested in
>>> putting up with that sort of attitude, and some things in my life had
>>> changed. So I got a poodle puppy and trained her myself. She is now
>>> 5.5 and an excellent working guide. I do not think of her as
>>> self-trained but as owner-trained.
>>>
>>> I think it is fair to say that for me and my guide, the percentage of
>>> program trained dogs over owner-trained dogs that cause problems for
>>> us is, well, one hundred percent. I have met and worked around other
>>> owner-trained dogs, but there has been zero problem because of either
>>> dog. Every guide dog that has caused difficulty with my owner-trained
>>> guide is program-trained by a certified trainer.
>>>
>>> When my dog was very young, she did have difficulty adjusting to being
>>> around other dogs, so she did cause problems. We worked on that and
>>> now she does not. The problems she had when she was young began at her
>>> first exposure to other working guides. A program-trained dog growled
>>> and lunged at her outside an elevator, then again in the elevator. A
>>> short while later, that same dog repeated the behavior because we were
>>> unable to avoid passing the pair. Another program-trained dog at that
>>> same short event brought his handler close enough that the man would
>>> have tripped over her if she hadn't jumped out of the way. He nearly
>>> tripped over me another time walking by where I was sitting.
>>>
>>> So, she was pretty uptight around other guides for quite a while, and
>>> it took a lot of work with her to keep her from being ruined, since I
>>> won't have a working guide that is that reactive to other guides. So
>>> those first program-trained guides we met nearly cost me all the
>>> training I'd put into my dog. They caused me and my owner-trained pup
>>> way more difficulty than any pet dog has. We made it through, and
>>> Mitzi is fine around other guide and service dogs now, but it took a
>>> lot of work for both of us to get there. For a long time, I thought we
>>> wouldn't.
>>>
>>> She has saved my life many times. Not anyone else did that by giving
>>> her to me already trained. Just her, following the training I gave her
>>> and her own brains and good judgment.
>>>
>>> As a partial, I hear all the time when it comes to resources of all
>>> types that my really great vision means I don't need whatever it is
>>> and that by just asking I am somehow taking it from "blind people who
>>> need it."
>>>
>>> This has cost me well into the 6 figures by now.
>>>
>>> I don't have really great vision, not by any vision exam I have had
>>> really since before I crossed that magical numerical line that
>>> qualified me as legally blind.
>>>
>>> It sounds to me, though, like you think I shouldn't get a guide dog
>>> because I don't really need one. Or adaptive technology to return to
>>> my vocation, I suppose.
>>>
>>> Is there anything else I don't deserve in your opinion? /evil grin/
>>>
>>> I understand that it can be difficult to rectify differences. However,
>>> it was the guide dog program that told you you just wanted the dog for
>>> a pet. It was not a partial or an owner-trainer.
>>>
>>> Tami
>>>
>>> On 01/30/2012 01:46 PM, Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov wrote:
>>>> Hi Marion:
>>>>
>>>> My wife has RP so I know all that. I can only say how I felt when a
>>>> school in 1980 or 1981 had the balls to tell me I wanted the dog as a
>>>> pet made me feel. I also think (I'm an old fox with a lot of years and
>>>> experience now) that I saw a dog guide user with a day time drivers
>>>> license. I'm not buying any of that but I'm just me:0). When Pilot
>>>> took me on at 19 they basically saved my life. I'm a fast traveler and
>>>> was a top notch cane user who taught others that were blind, but, I 
>>>> went
>>>> to many many different places and knew in my heart that I needed four
>>>> legged help.
>>>>
>>>> I can tell you many instances where "self trained dogs caused me a lot
>>>> of problems, but, I think it is possible to train your own dog, if 
>>>> your
>>>> a certified trainer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: "Marion Gwizdala"<blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
>>>> Dog Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Date: 01/30/2012 03:16 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>> Sent by: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Robert,
>>>> Individuals with retinitis pigmentosa may have fairly good acuity
>>>> but
>>>> their fields of vision may be seriously compromised. narrow fields of
>>>> vision
>>>> can distort depth perception so that individuals may not realize they
>>>> are
>>>> standing at the top of a flight of stairs or at the threshhold of a
>>>> loading
>>>> dock. Furthermore, since the periphery of the retina contains a high
>>>> concentration of rods cells that are responsible for sight in dimly 
>>>> lit
>>>> areas and the ability to see moving objects, those affected by this
>>>> condition benefit from using a dog to travel safely under those
>>>> conditions.
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From:<Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 2:30 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure why somebody with very high vision would need a dog 
>>>>> guide
>>>>> and have said so in school. Somebody and bodies were in training with
>>>>> me and could see faces, identify cars and see the surrounding area
>>>>> pretty clearly for well over 50 yards? I'm an honest person and 
>>>>> didn't
>>>>> hesitate to ask why the hell they were getting a dog. Answers off
>>>> list
>>>>> only but I was not happy& hope they didn't get a dog guide.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are waiting lists for people who are very low partials&/or
>>>>> totally blind to get a dog guide so its not just a cut and dry "get a
>>>>> dog". there is a evaluation& process for reasons mentioned above.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope I don't come across as brash but I have very strong feelings
>>>> about
>>>>> this topic.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: "Larry D. Keeler"<lkeeler at comcast.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
>>>>> Dog Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Date: 01/30/2012 12:58 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>> Sent by: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Good choice! For me it was a case of the more the merrier!.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Melissa Pasron"<fuzzylucky2021 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 10:47 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for giving me a different perspective. I am really trying
>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>> weigh the options before I make a decision. My current deciding
>>>> factor
>>>>> is
>>>>>> that I currently have a pet dog and I don't know if I'll be ready to
>>>>> do
>>>>>> all the grooming and caring for two dogs. Not to mention if a guide
>>>>> dog is
>>>>>> right for me at the current moment. I think I'll just sit on the
>>>> issue
>>>>> for
>>>>>> a while and think about it. I don't want to go rushing into a
>>>> decision
>>>>>
>>>>>> without giving it a lot of thought.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jan 30, 2012, at 9:37 AM, "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)"
>>>>>> <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In making your decision, think about what you most want to do when
>>>>> you
>>>>>>> return home from being out someplace. Do you want to spend time
>>>>> grooming
>>>>>>> and caring for a dog, and doing it every single day, or would you
>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> do something else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I worked two dogs. Then I had my daughter and found that all I
>>>> wanted
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> do was hang out with her, especially after being at work all day.
>>>>> Taking
>>>>>>> care of the dog became more of a chore then something I enjoyed.
>>>> And,
>>>>> at
>>>>>>> times it became very difficult to balance, baby wanted to eat or be
>>>>> held,
>>>>>>> dog needed to be brushed, you can't do both at the same time. And,
>>>>> while
>>>>>>> an obvious answer may be "get help with the baby" I enjoyed and
>>>> still
>>>>>
>>>>>>> enjoy taking care of her.
>>>>>>> Think about how you'll feel when the dog wakes you up to go potty,
>>>>> will
>>>>>>> you be okay with it or will it mentally wear you out as "one more
>>>>> thing I
>>>>>>> have to do".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What are your hobbies and are they comptible with a guide dog? You
>>>>> can
>>>>>>> always leave a cane, and a cane is easy to replace. Not true with a
>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have had a couple access issues. I can tell you that when that
>>>>> happens,
>>>>>>> the very first thought that goes through your head is "This really
>>>>> f***s
>>>>>>> up my plans".
>>>>>>> I'll add that I like dogs. They are neat animals, and I think have
>>>>> much
>>>>>>> to teach us. At times I miss having one. On a day when the sun is
>>>>>>> shinging, and it's 65 degrees, I'd love to take a guide dog and 
>>>>>>> walk
>>>>> on a
>>>>>>> bike path, as the feeling of you being in synch with a dog is
>>>>> amazing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right now, I can't deal with the 24/7 nature of a guide dog. I
>>>> can't
>>>>> do
>>>>>>> it with a pet dog either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can bring a guide dog anywhere, but you also need to plan on
>>>> that
>>>>>
>>>>>>> with food, water, rest, appropriate supervision, things like that.
>>>>> It's
>>>>>>> difficult to "just stay a bit longer" when you didn't plan on it 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> don't have food for your dog.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, the answer is that it really depends. I offer my perspective
>>>>> because
>>>>>>> this list is made up of people who are currently using dogs and who
>>>>> like
>>>>>>> doing it. It would be useful for you and others to have a different
>>>>>>> perspective.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of melissa padron
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:35 PM
>>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am new to this list so I though I would just start off with an
>>>>>>> introduction and then some questions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, first of all, my name is Melissa and although I am not a 
>>>>>>> guide
>>>>> dog
>>>>>>> user I am a cane user. I'm in college pursuing a degree in
>>>> psychology
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> I will be moving back to my hometown once I graduate. I'm 
>>>>>>> considered
>>>>>>> legally blind, so I do have vision.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because of the condition I have, I was not taught to use a cane
>>>> until
>>>>> my
>>>>>>> senior year of high school. I actually had to fight in order to get
>>>>> cane
>>>>>>> lessons, but since then, I just about take my cane everywhere with
>>>>> me. It
>>>>>>> helps a lot more than using my vision and stressing my eyes....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now, some questions:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am not considering getting a guide dog now but I do want to keep
>>>> it
>>>>> as
>>>>>>> an option if I decide that it would help me in my travels. So my
>>>>> question
>>>>>>> is, what was ultimately you deciding factor in getting a guide dog?
>>>>>>> What are some advantages and disadvantages in using a guide dog?
>>>>>>> For those of you who have vision, did you encounter problems with
>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>>> guide dog schools saying that a guide dog would not benefit you
>>>>> because
>>>>>>> you have "too much" vision?
>>>>>>> Ultimately, this is my greatest fear. I'm scared of encountering
>>>>>>> criticism by guide dog schools and "blindness professionals" about
>>>>>>> whether a guide dog would benefit me or not. A lot of people 
>>>>>>> with my
>>>>>>> condition function well without a cane or a dog so would this be
>>>> used
>>>>>
>>>>>>> against me if I were to apply?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am looking forward to hearing your responses and advice.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Melissa
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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