[nagdu] cooperation vs. force

Wed Feb 29 23:15:17 UTC 2012

Essentially he does not like being confined, however, as far as I can tell, 
there is no compelling reason to confine him. He does not chew, or try to 
eat the trash or anything else.  All he does is plays with his ball, or 
other toys and sleeps.

I have given up on attempting confining him, because as far as I can tell, 
he does not require it. He won't leave my room without me, even if the door 
is open, he never barks, and I haven't seen him chew any of my stuff. I can 
even put his treat pouch on my desk or bed and he won't touch them, even 
though they are well within his reach.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Hooper" <hooper.90 at buckeyemail.osu.edu>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] cooperation vs. force

> Hello Julie:
>
> An excellent message--and I agree. So, regarding Mark's issue, what would 
> you do if Monty developed into a power chewer and got into the habit of 
> tie-down destruction? In my message I jocularly suggested buying thousands 
> of tie-downs and doing obedience exercises with each one. I then (less 
> jocularly) suggested a muzzle, which is the only thing of which I could 
> think  (aside from the already-mentioned crating option) that would work. 
> Of course, I'm sure there are other things.
> If Bailey had a chewing problem, I don't think my solution would be to 
> just give up the tie-down and buy things that I don't mind being 
> destroyed--in essence, that's letting the dog win; or it's just avoiding 
> the issue by coming up with excuses rather than addressing the root 
> behavior problem. The dog thinks: Hmm...I chew this nasty contraption in 
> half, I get freedom. To be psychological for a moment: The dog is confined 
> and doesn't like it (negative circumstance (or stimulus)). The dog chews 
> his way out of this environment and gets freedom (the removal of a 
> negative stimulus--thus, negative reinforcement). So, the dog chewing up 
> tie-downs unrestrained is getting that chewing behavior reinforced. While 
> I don't believe in micromanaging, I don't believe in building my 
> environment solely around what the dog likes or thinks should be--I 
> occasionally go to the gym, a place full of people making weights do 
> things that they shouldn't be doing. I am there for about an hour, so I 
> choose to leave the dog home, on tie-down. I don't believe the weight 
> floor in my gym very safe for my dog--it's not that I think something bad 
> will happen--it's that whatever may happen could be very serious, but 
> that's another post. Anyway, there are some things on which I relent. For 
> example, the dog doesn't much like vacuum cleaners; as a result, I usually 
> take him upstairs when vacuuming downstairs so he can avoid the 
> discomfort, etc. However, if I want the dog to stay some place, then I 
> will find a way to have him stay there. Bailey is fine with tie-downs and 
> crates, thus, I don't have a problem. Sometimes my life doesn't allow for 
> flexibility around the discomforts of the dog--I do some things I don't 
> much like, so must he. I would view Bailey's hypothetical chewing problem 
> as unacceptable behavior and I would do my best to modify it--that will 
> save me money, time, and frustration; in the meantime, I may choose to 
> crate him instead of tying him
> You say in your message that free choice is important, and I agree. I love 
> and cherish the relationship with my dog; however, at the end of the day, 
> he must know that I am the pack leader and if I tell him to do something, 
> he should do it. I have slowly given him more and more freedom around the 
> apartment--at first, I had him on leash or tie-down. Now, he is free to 
> rome about at will, because he has demonstrated to me that he will not eat 
> the trash or do any other doggy misdeeds. This freedom of choice doesn't 
> extend itself to actions which may cause my belongings (or my roommate's 
> belongings) to be harmed. I work hard and earn little--the things I have I 
> need to get through school. Also, freedom of choice doesn't extend itself 
> to actions which may cause the dog harm (most importantly). Most household 
> items aren't meant to be chewed or ingested and can cause serious internal 
> problems if eaten. I was (and still am) reluctant to give corrections--but 
> if giving one (or 12) will reduce or eliminate the chance that I might be 
> sitting in the vet's office hoping against hope that Bailey will live 
> through a surgery, then I will give them.
> So, to wrap up: I greatly respect you as an owner-trainer and I hope to 
> one day join the ranks of owner-trainers in the world. I will end with the 
> question I posed at the beginning of this rather long-winded message: How 
> would you deal with this problem if it were one of your dogs? I love 
> hearing about your opinions and experience, as you have so much of the 
> latter! [smile]
> As for Mark, might I recommend the adage taught to me at TSE: "whatever 
> works". I believe that if you are satisfied with the way your dog is 
> behaving and it isn't causing anyone (or their property) harm, then you 
> are doing it right.
> Sincerely,
> Robert Hooper
> Hooper.90 at buckeyemail.osu.edu
> The Ohio State University
> 0653 Buckeye-Cuyahoga CT
> 653 Cuyahoga Court
> Columbus, Ohio 43210
> (740) 856-8195
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf 
> Of Julie J.
> Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 11:58 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] cooperation vs. force
>
> All the recent messages on this list and others concerning corrections, 
> tie downs, muzzles etc. have me thinking.  Although I'm not absolutely 
> opposed to corrections, confinement, muzzles or any other sort of punitive 
> measure that comes to mind, it does make me wonder how the use of these 
> affect the relationship with the dog.  To me the relationship I have with 
> my dog is the most important thing.  If that is built from trust, 
> cooperation and mutual respect then everything else will be fine.  I want 
> a dog to want to be with me and work with me not out of fear of a 
> punishment, but because he genuinely enjoys my company.  I want him to 
> feel empowered to think for himself and to try new things.
> I feel that too much use of punishment based interaction will hamper the 
> ability for him to do these things.  I want him to learn self control so 
> he can manage his own impulses out of a place of  confidence in his own 
> choices rather than me micromanaging his life.
>
> I'm not explaining well.   I guess what I'm trying to say is that I
> think freedom of choice on the part of the dog is an important thing.
> Too often I have fallen into the trap of micromanaging too much of my 
> dog's lives, not allowing them any amount of freedom.  I regret that.
> It is something that I have learned with Monty.  To truly trust a dog you 
> have to give them opportunities to mess up so they can show you that they 
> won't.
>
> Julie
>
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