[nagdu] cooperation vs. force
Mark J. Cadigan
kramc11 at gmail.com
Wed Feb 29 23:56:51 UTC 2012
I will find out. It's the weirdest thing. If I don't confine him, he is
fine, when I put him on tie down, he acts up. When he is free, he just stays
in his "virtual crate" he doesn't wander off, and just stays within a few
feet of me. I am currently in ethics class, the fact I am reading emails in
class is a different issue, however, the leash is looped over my left leg,
and he is just sitting quietly under my chare. If I drop the leash, he will
just stay there. He doesn't chew the leash in situations like this, only if
I was to loop the leash around the desk and walk away, then he would chew it
and come to me.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] cooperation vs. force
> Okay, this time I promise that this is my last bit of advice. Maybe you
> should contact Fidelco and try to find out more about if he did this at
> Fidelco, and, if so, what was done about it. Maybe this is just a game
> that he is playing with you because he is still new, and it will wear off
> after a while.
> On a slightly different note, I wonder what Fidelco thinks of this. I
> know that this is not as important as good guide work, but I consider a
> big enough concern that it should have either been stopped before the dog
> was placed or the dog should not have become a guide dog. Just my last 2
> cents. Okay, I'm broke now...
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 3:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] cooperation vs. force
>
>
>> Essentially he does not like being confined, however, as far as I can
>> tell, there is no compelling reason to confine him. He does not chew, or
>> try to eat the trash or anything else. All he does is plays with his
>> ball, or other toys and sleeps.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have given up on attempting confining him, because as far as I can
>> tell, he does not require it. He won't leave my room without me, even if
>> the door is open, he never barks, and I haven't seen him chew any of my
>> stuff. I can even put his treat pouch on my desk or bed and he won't
>> touch them, even though they are well within his reach.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Robert Hooper" <hooper.90 at buckeyemail.osu.edu>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 5:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] cooperation vs. force
>>
>>
>>> Hello Julie:
>>>
>>> An excellent message--and I agree. So, regarding Mark's issue, what
>>> would you do if Monty developed into a power chewer and got into the
>>> habit of tie-down destruction? In my message I jocularly suggested
>>> buying thousands of tie-downs and doing obedience exercises with each
>>> one. I then (less jocularly) suggested a muzzle, which is the only thing
>>> of which I could think (aside from the already-mentioned crating
>>> option) that would work. Of course, I'm sure there are other things.
>>> If Bailey had a chewing problem, I don't think my solution would be to
>>> just give up the tie-down and buy things that I don't mind being
>>> destroyed--in essence, that's letting the dog win; or it's just avoiding
>>> the issue by coming up with excuses rather than addressing the root
>>> behavior problem. The dog thinks: Hmm...I chew this nasty contraption in
>>> half, I get freedom. To be psychological for a moment: The dog is
>>> confined and doesn't like it (negative circumstance (or stimulus)). The
>>> dog chews his way out of this environment and gets freedom (the removal
>>> of a negative stimulus--thus, negative reinforcement). So, the dog
>>> chewing up tie-downs unrestrained is getting that chewing behavior
>>> reinforced. While I don't believe in micromanaging, I don't believe in
>>> building my environment solely around what the dog likes or thinks
>>> should be--I occasionally go to the gym, a place full of people making
>>> weights do things that they shouldn't be doing. I am there for about an
>>> hour, so I choose to leave the dog home, on tie-down. I don't believe
>>> the weight floor in my gym very safe for my dog--it's not that I think
>>> something bad will happen--it's that whatever may happen could be very
>>> serious, but that's another post. Anyway, there are some things on which
>>> I relent. For example, the dog doesn't much like vacuum cleaners; as a
>>> result, I usually take him upstairs when vacuuming downstairs so he can
>>> avoid the discomfort, etc. However, if I want the dog to stay some
>>> place, then I will find a way to have him stay there. Bailey is fine
>>> with tie-downs and crates, thus, I don't have a problem. Sometimes my
>>> life doesn't allow for flexibility around the discomforts of the dog--I
>>> do some things I don't much like, so must he. I would view Bailey's
>>> hypothetical chewing problem as unacceptable behavior and I would do my
>>> best to modify it--that will save me money, time, and frustration; in
>>> the meantime, I may choose to crate him instead of tying him
>>> You say in your message that free choice is important, and I agree. I
>>> love and cherish the relationship with my dog; however, at the end of
>>> the day, he must know that I am the pack leader and if I tell him to do
>>> something, he should do it. I have slowly given him more and more
>>> freedom around the apartment--at first, I had him on leash or tie-down.
>>> Now, he is free to rome about at will, because he has demonstrated to me
>>> that he will not eat the trash or do any other doggy misdeeds. This
>>> freedom of choice doesn't extend itself to actions which may cause my
>>> belongings (or my roommate's belongings) to be harmed. I work hard and
>>> earn little--the things I have I need to get through school. Also,
>>> freedom of choice doesn't extend itself to actions which may cause the
>>> dog harm (most importantly). Most household items aren't meant to be
>>> chewed or ingested and can cause serious internal problems if eaten. I
>>> was (and still am) reluctant to give corrections--but if giving one (or
>>> 12) will reduce or eliminate the chance that I might be sitting in the
>>> vet's office hoping against hope that Bailey will live through a
>>> surgery, then I will give them.
>>> So, to wrap up: I greatly respect you as an owner-trainer and I hope to
>>> one day join the ranks of owner-trainers in the world. I will end with
>>> the question I posed at the beginning of this rather long-winded
>>> message: How would you deal with this problem if it were one of your
>>> dogs? I love hearing about your opinions and experience, as you have so
>>> much of the latter! [smile]
>>> As for Mark, might I recommend the adage taught to me at TSE: "whatever
>>> works". I believe that if you are satisfied with the way your dog is
>>> behaving and it isn't causing anyone (or their property) harm, then you
>>> are doing it right.
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Robert Hooper
>>> Hooper.90 at buckeyemail.osu.edu
>>> The Ohio State University
>>> 0653 Buckeye-Cuyahoga CT
>>> 653 Cuyahoga Court
>>> Columbus, Ohio 43210
>>> (740) 856-8195
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Julie J.
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 11:58 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: [nagdu] cooperation vs. force
>>>
>>> All the recent messages on this list and others concerning corrections,
>>> tie downs, muzzles etc. have me thinking. Although I'm not absolutely
>>> opposed to corrections, confinement, muzzles or any other sort of
>>> punitive measure that comes to mind, it does make me wonder how the use
>>> of these affect the relationship with the dog. To me the relationship I
>>> have with my dog is the most important thing. If that is built from
>>> trust, cooperation and mutual respect then everything else will be fine.
>>> I want a dog to want to be with me and work with me not out of fear of a
>>> punishment, but because he genuinely enjoys my company. I want him to
>>> feel empowered to think for himself and to try new things.
>>> I feel that too much use of punishment based interaction will hamper the
>>> ability for him to do these things. I want him to learn self control so
>>> he can manage his own impulses out of a place of confidence in his own
>>> choices rather than me micromanaging his life.
>>>
>>> I'm not explaining well. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I
>>> think freedom of choice on the part of the dog is an important thing.
>>> Too often I have fallen into the trap of micromanaging too much of my
>>> dog's lives, not allowing them any amount of freedom. I regret that.
>>> It is something that I have learned with Monty. To truly trust a dog
>>> you have to give them opportunities to mess up so they can show you that
>>> they won't.
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
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>>>
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>>
>>
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>
>
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