[nagdu] Owner training

Mon Jan 23 03:10:35 UTC 2012

Hi Tami,
I'd surely be interested, more from a perspective of a third-time, 
program-trained guide dog handler who is satisfied with the training she 
received, but also as a human services professional who has studied all the 
theories and has a curiosity of how those theories can be applied to our 
furry partners as well.
Best,
Nat and Liam Joshua

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tami Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Owner training

> Robert,
>
> Oh, good heavens to Murgatroyd! What a great post about all the questions 
> and ins and outs of owner-training. I cracked up the whole way through. So 
> I am one of those wild and crazy ones to go with my wild and crazy poodle 
> guide. /grin/
>
> Okay, it's late-ish here. Since you appear to appreciate the long, 
> intellectual (or whatever) version, I will get back to you off-list. I 
> should warn you, though. Once you give any given owner-trainer the go 
> ahead to start talking about it, your wish will be granted! /grin/
>
> If people on the list wish for the detailed, intellectual (or whatever) 
> version, I can do that, too. I'm just thinking that not everyone thrills 
> to the ins and outs of applied operant conditioning underpinnings of a 
> behavioral model and, well... All that kinda stuff. /grin/
>
> Oh, the short answer is that I've always thought about it it as an 
> intellectual exercise... Then I got this poodle kinda thing and thought, 
> hey! why not? So I did...And if you really think it was all that 
> simple.../ grin/
>
> Tami
>
> On 01/18/2012 05:52 PM, Robert Hooper wrote:
>> Hello all:
>>
>> Yes, I truly am bringing this monster out of the closet. My overwhelming 
>> curiosity about the subject can no longer just passively snatch the 
>> interesting bits of owner-trainer-related material that appears from time 
>> to time on this list! As a psychology and neuroscience major (with a 
>> possible Spanish minor, although that's irrelevant at present), I am 
>> curious. Please don't construe the following statement as a comment about 
>> my level of satisfaction regarding my current lovably fluffy Seeing Eye 
>> dog-I couldn't have hoped for better in that respect. However, I am 
>> strongly considering owner-training my next guide, even though the 
>> reasons have little to do with disappointment or other issues with the 
>> quality of school-trained dogs. I will admit that my reasoning is largely 
>> intellectual-nothing noble at all; just a simple scientific curiosity 
>> about the experience and whether or not I would succeed. So, on to my 
>> questions, which I hope are general enough to keep all interested.
>>
>> 1.       I am given to understand that the schools (or more specifically, 
>> the trainers) match students to dogs based on the number available-that 
>> is, there are always at least two options from which the trainers can 
>> pick (at least in TSE's case). I also know that the owner-trainer knows 
>> their needs much more intimately than does the school-trainer, thus they 
>> (the owner-trainer) are much more equipped to choose desirable traits in 
>> a dog. In most cases,  however, the owner-trainer isn't equipped to spend 
>> thousands of dollars on several dogs, get them all obedience trained, and 
>> then choose the one with which they wish to work. That would be 
>> incredibly cost inefficient and a seeming waste of time-time that could 
>> otherwise be spent filling out applications to the various schools we 
>> have across the country (for free).
>>
>> 2.       So, Mr. owner-trainer has decided that he wants to owner-train 
>> his guide after careful consideration of the advantages and disadvantages 
>> of such-which are...what? Why would the owner-trainer wish to forego 3-4 
>> weeks away from home for an expensive and risky investment that is 
>> owner-training? I understand those who have additional issues with which 
>> the schools are unwilling to work-from balance to missing limbs, etc. Is 
>> it then a simple quarrel the owner-trainer has with the various schools? 
>> Or perhaps the owner-trainer undergoes the journey with nothing more in 
>> mind than a scientific curiosity and a desire to succeed? Many might say 
>> that taking the requisite time off work to go off into guide dog school 
>> land is difficult at best-how does a full time job stand up to the other 
>> fulltime difficulty of training one's future service animal? So, the 
>> potential owner-trainer must want to owner-train for reasons other than 
>> time, expense, work, and difficulty. This mere TSE g
> raduate wonders what those reasons may be.
>>
>> 3.       So, we left this hypothetical owner-trainer with a variety of 
>> pups from which to choose. He is now scratching his head wondering about 
>> the pups' pace and pull. Since this isn't something that can be tested 
>> until the pup has achieved some level of training, what is our 
>> owner-trainer to do? Train all of them to a degree and pick the one he 
>> likes best? If so, I ask: why? Why go through so much stress-unless one 
>> is a dog trainer already-in which case, one is probably already training 
>> many dogs at once? Let's say that our hypothetical owner-trainer is 
>> not-he has a fulltime job (or school) that is unrelated to dogs.
>>
>> 4.       Now that our owner-trainer has obtained the right pup, how is he 
>> going to train it? So much research! Mr. Owner-trainer is now scratching 
>> his head about that as well. Before long, Mr. Owner-trainer's hair may 
>> begin to fall out-especially considering this theory versus that. On one 
>> hand, we have the  super-PC "never correct your puppy-it's wrong! Shower 
>> rainbows and flowers on your dogs at all times-even when they're doing 
>> something wrong; they'll get it right someday". On the other hand, you 
>> have those who say "beat your dog into submission and only stop when he 
>> bends to your will!" Then, you have those more sane people in the middle 
>> who say "Praise your dog for that which he gets right; correct your dog 
>> for that which he gets wrong. Just make sure he knows what he's supposed 
>> to be doing first". Of course, my philosophy lies here, but here there 
>> are still countless methods, tactics, theories, etc., many of which 
>> conflict to a greater or lesser degree. What is Mr. O
> wner-trainer to do here?
>>
>> 5.       Mr. Owner-trainer has picked a philosophy to suit his world view 
>> and understanding. He begins the massive undertaking of the training 
>> process. Does he find himself needing help as he progresses from obstacle 
>> courses in his living-room to the streets of [insert name of big daunting 
>> city here]? And, incidentally, is he still able to support himself or has 
>> he gotten fired from work yet? Does he recreate a random sighted friend 
>> to help him? What exactly does Mr. or Ms. Sighted friend do to help? Does 
>> he need a Mr. or Ms. Sighted person? Also, a question probably more 
>> appropriate toward the beginning, how does he socialize his new pup? Does 
>> he bring an untrained non-service animal to work with him? Can he 
>> convince malls, restaurants, and the like to accept a partially trained 
>> non-service animal? Does he obtain one of those vests? Would he 
>> experience more access issues since (a) he is a blind guide dog trainer 
>> and (b) there are few to no laws protecting service animals i
> n training?
>>
>> 6.       So, here Mr. Owner-trainer is, at the end of training his new 
>> pup. At what point does his dog transition to a "fully-certified" service 
>> animal-for example, when will Mr. Owner-trainer ditch the cane and start 
>> bringing Mr. Fido to work with him?
>>
>> I realize that the questions outlined above are both extensive and, at 
>> times, labored. I decided that I could be more eloquent if I imagined an 
>> actual scenario, start to finish and brought forth questions as the story 
>> progressed. This, for me, worked better than trying to think of them 
>> randomly. I assigned a storyline so I could be sure to ask questions that 
>> pertain to all levels of training (as I perceive them, anyway). My area 
>> of greatest interest lies, naturally enough, toward the beginning of the 
>> scenario-selection of puppies, puppy socialization and training method 
>> research (which in reality would occur long before acquisition of the pup 
>> in question). I am also interested in the reasons owner-trainers have for 
>> doing what they do and how this stacks up against available time, money, 
>> etc. Let's face it, not all of us have an unlimited budget that can be 
>> squandered on something that might be a disappointment or an outright 
>> failure. I will waste no more time discussing and
> rehashing my questions (which are much more exhaustively covered above). I 
> hope this email is of manageable length. If anyone wishes to engage me in 
> this topic full force, then I invite you to write me off-list, if you feel 
> it necessary. I believe the topic perfectly appropriate, but I understand 
> that there are those on this list who are worried about and concerned with 
> the dogs they have or the training through which they will go and thus 
> have little or no need for such extensive topics such as the one I am 
> posting now. I feel as though I have unleashed a monster, but I wish to 
> get a better understanding of the process-from reasoning to methodology. I 
> appreciate any time anyone can spare with this topic. I hope that the 
> responses I receive are reflective of the time and effort I put into this 
> email (although if you've gotten this far without drowsing off or deleting 
> the message, I am thankful). As always, I look forward to your thoughts 
> and informative correspondence.
>> Sincerely,
>> Robert Hooper
>> Hooper.90 at buckeyemail.osu.edu<mailto:Hooper.90 at buckeyemail.osu.edu>
>> The Ohio State University
>> 0653 Buckeye-Cuyahoga CT
>> 653 Cuyahoga Court
>> Columbus, Ohio 43210
>> (740) 856-8195
>>
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