[nagdu] Owner training

Mon Jan 23 04:35:04 UTC 2012

Cool! I've been having a lot of fun reading what the others have to say 
on the subject while I prepare for a meeting with my VRC. In case she 
shows up. With this agency, you can never be sure until they do or they 
don't. Also, I am reviewing every single rule and law and regulation... 
Again. She's already shown she will follow the pattern of just going by 
the usual agency script, which mostly involves making up rules that 
don't exist to break the law... So I'm preparing to record and being 
really snarly. /lol/

Still, I have some fun with the puppy, applying all the lessons I 
learned from Mitzi, then from Daisy. With help from the likes of Julie 
and Rox and a few other really wonderful owner-trainers, of course.

Anyway, when I can make sense again, I'll go on about my own techniques 
and theories based on theories about theories... /lol/

I'm a math/science/computer geek myself, but the behavioral studies and 
other areas of the humanities and how they all tie together is also 
fascinating to me, so I read a lot of it just for fun. /smile/

More later,

Tami

On 01/22/2012 07:10 PM, Natalie wrote:
> Hi Tami,
> I'd surely be interested, more from a perspective of a third-time,
> program-trained guide dog handler who is satisfied with the training she
> received, but also as a human services professional who has studied all
> the theories and has a curiosity of how those theories can be applied to
> our furry partners as well.
> Best,
> Nat and Liam Joshua
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tami Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 7:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Owner training
>
>
>> Robert,
>>
>> Oh, good heavens to Murgatroyd! What a great post about all the
>> questions and ins and outs of owner-training. I cracked up the whole
>> way through. So I am one of those wild and crazy ones to go with my
>> wild and crazy poodle guide. /grin/
>>
>> Okay, it's late-ish here. Since you appear to appreciate the long,
>> intellectual (or whatever) version, I will get back to you off-list. I
>> should warn you, though. Once you give any given owner-trainer the go
>> ahead to start talking about it, your wish will be granted! /grin/
>>
>> If people on the list wish for the detailed, intellectual (or
>> whatever) version, I can do that, too. I'm just thinking that not
>> everyone thrills to the ins and outs of applied operant conditioning
>> underpinnings of a behavioral model and, well... All that kinda stuff.
>> /grin/
>>
>> Oh, the short answer is that I've always thought about it it as an
>> intellectual exercise... Then I got this poodle kinda thing and
>> thought, hey! why not? So I did...And if you really think it was all
>> that simple.../ grin/
>>
>> Tami
>>
>> On 01/18/2012 05:52 PM, Robert Hooper wrote:
>>> Hello all:
>>>
>>> Yes, I truly am bringing this monster out of the closet. My
>>> overwhelming curiosity about the subject can no longer just passively
>>> snatch the interesting bits of owner-trainer-related material that
>>> appears from time to time on this list! As a psychology and
>>> neuroscience major (with a possible Spanish minor, although that's
>>> irrelevant at present), I am curious. Please don't construe the
>>> following statement as a comment about my level of satisfaction
>>> regarding my current lovably fluffy Seeing Eye dog-I couldn't have
>>> hoped for better in that respect. However, I am strongly considering
>>> owner-training my next guide, even though the reasons have little to
>>> do with disappointment or other issues with the quality of
>>> school-trained dogs. I will admit that my reasoning is largely
>>> intellectual-nothing noble at all; just a simple scientific curiosity
>>> about the experience and whether or not I would succeed. So, on to my
>>> questions, which I hope are general enough to keep all interested.
>>>
>>> 1. I am given to understand that the schools (or more specifically,
>>> the trainers) match students to dogs based on the number
>>> available-that is, there are always at least two options from which
>>> the trainers can pick (at least in TSE's case). I also know that the
>>> owner-trainer knows their needs much more intimately than does the
>>> school-trainer, thus they (the owner-trainer) are much more equipped
>>> to choose desirable traits in a dog. In most cases, however, the
>>> owner-trainer isn't equipped to spend thousands of dollars on several
>>> dogs, get them all obedience trained, and then choose the one with
>>> which they wish to work. That would be incredibly cost inefficient
>>> and a seeming waste of time-time that could otherwise be spent
>>> filling out applications to the various schools we have across the
>>> country (for free).
>>>
>>> 2. So, Mr. owner-trainer has decided that he wants to owner-train his
>>> guide after careful consideration of the advantages and disadvantages
>>> of such-which are...what? Why would the owner-trainer wish to forego
>>> 3-4 weeks away from home for an expensive and risky investment that
>>> is owner-training? I understand those who have additional issues with
>>> which the schools are unwilling to work-from balance to missing
>>> limbs, etc. Is it then a simple quarrel the owner-trainer has with
>>> the various schools? Or perhaps the owner-trainer undergoes the
>>> journey with nothing more in mind than a scientific curiosity and a
>>> desire to succeed? Many might say that taking the requisite time off
>>> work to go off into guide dog school land is difficult at best-how
>>> does a full time job stand up to the other fulltime difficulty of
>>> training one's future service animal? So, the potential owner-trainer
>>> must want to owner-train for reasons other than time, expense, work,
>>> and difficulty. This mere TSE g
>> raduate wonders what those reasons may be.
>>>
>>> 3. So, we left this hypothetical owner-trainer with a variety of pups
>>> from which to choose. He is now scratching his head wondering about
>>> the pups' pace and pull. Since this isn't something that can be
>>> tested until the pup has achieved some level of training, what is our
>>> owner-trainer to do? Train all of them to a degree and pick the one
>>> he likes best? If so, I ask: why? Why go through so much
>>> stress-unless one is a dog trainer already-in which case, one is
>>> probably already training many dogs at once? Let's say that our
>>> hypothetical owner-trainer is not-he has a fulltime job (or school)
>>> that is unrelated to dogs.
>>>
>>> 4. Now that our owner-trainer has obtained the right pup, how is he
>>> going to train it? So much research! Mr. Owner-trainer is now
>>> scratching his head about that as well. Before long, Mr.
>>> Owner-trainer's hair may begin to fall out-especially considering
>>> this theory versus that. On one hand, we have the super-PC "never
>>> correct your puppy-it's wrong! Shower rainbows and flowers on your
>>> dogs at all times-even when they're doing something wrong; they'll
>>> get it right someday". On the other hand, you have those who say
>>> "beat your dog into submission and only stop when he bends to your
>>> will!" Then, you have those more sane people in the middle who say
>>> "Praise your dog for that which he gets right; correct your dog for
>>> that which he gets wrong. Just make sure he knows what he's supposed
>>> to be doing first". Of course, my philosophy lies here, but here
>>> there are still countless methods, tactics, theories, etc., many of
>>> which conflict to a greater or lesser degree. What is Mr. O
>> wner-trainer to do here?
>>>
>>> 5. Mr. Owner-trainer has picked a philosophy to suit his world view
>>> and understanding. He begins the massive undertaking of the training
>>> process. Does he find himself needing help as he progresses from
>>> obstacle courses in his living-room to the streets of [insert name of
>>> big daunting city here]? And, incidentally, is he still able to
>>> support himself or has he gotten fired from work yet? Does he
>>> recreate a random sighted friend to help him? What exactly does Mr.
>>> or Ms. Sighted friend do to help? Does he need a Mr. or Ms. Sighted
>>> person? Also, a question probably more appropriate toward the
>>> beginning, how does he socialize his new pup? Does he bring an
>>> untrained non-service animal to work with him? Can he convince malls,
>>> restaurants, and the like to accept a partially trained non-service
>>> animal? Does he obtain one of those vests? Would he experience more
>>> access issues since (a) he is a blind guide dog trainer and (b) there
>>> are few to no laws protecting service animals i
>> n training?
>>>
>>> 6. So, here Mr. Owner-trainer is, at the end of training his new pup.
>>> At what point does his dog transition to a "fully-certified" service
>>> animal-for example, when will Mr. Owner-trainer ditch the cane and
>>> start bringing Mr. Fido to work with him?
>>>
>>> I realize that the questions outlined above are both extensive and,
>>> at times, labored. I decided that I could be more eloquent if I
>>> imagined an actual scenario, start to finish and brought forth
>>> questions as the story progressed. This, for me, worked better than
>>> trying to think of them randomly. I assigned a storyline so I could
>>> be sure to ask questions that pertain to all levels of training (as I
>>> perceive them, anyway). My area of greatest interest lies, naturally
>>> enough, toward the beginning of the scenario-selection of puppies,
>>> puppy socialization and training method research (which in reality
>>> would occur long before acquisition of the pup in question). I am
>>> also interested in the reasons owner-trainers have for doing what
>>> they do and how this stacks up against available time, money, etc.
>>> Let's face it, not all of us have an unlimited budget that can be
>>> squandered on something that might be a disappointment or an outright
>>> failure. I will waste no more time discussing and
>> rehashing my questions (which are much more exhaustively covered
>> above). I hope this email is of manageable length. If anyone wishes to
>> engage me in this topic full force, then I invite you to write me
>> off-list, if you feel it necessary. I believe the topic perfectly
>> appropriate, but I understand that there are those on this list who
>> are worried about and concerned with the dogs they have or the
>> training through which they will go and thus have little or no need
>> for such extensive topics such as the one I am posting now. I feel as
>> though I have unleashed a monster, but I wish to get a better
>> understanding of the process-from reasoning to methodology. I
>> appreciate any time anyone can spare with this topic. I hope that the
>> responses I receive are reflective of the time and effort I put into
>> this email (although if you've gotten this far without drowsing off or
>> deleting the message, I am thankful). As always, I look forward to
>> your thoughts and informative correspondence.
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Robert Hooper
>>> Hooper.90 at buckeyemail.osu.edu<mailto:Hooper.90 at buckeyemail.osu.edu>
>>> The Ohio State University
>>> 0653 Buckeye-Cuyahoga CT
>>> 653 Cuyahoga Court
>>> Columbus, Ohio 43210
>>> (740) 856-8195
>>>
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>>
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