[nagdu] Success in Posting to the List

Tue Jul 31 23:21:14 UTC 2012

Hi Ann
I have had similar problems in the past where I could send a new post 
but not reply to one.  I'm replying to your post so if it appears on the 
list then the problem for me is fixed too.
Brenda

On 7/31/2012 6:55 PM, Ann Edie wrote:
> Hi, Marsha, David, and List,
>
> Judging from the fact that the below message did indeed appear on the list,
> I conclude that I am now once again fully connected to the NAGDU list.  I
> have been having problems off and on sending messages to the list, even in
> reply to posted messages.  My messages have been rejected as junk mail,
> according to the notices I have received.  Has anyone else been experiencing
> such problems recently, or is it just me?
>
> I hope the problem is now truly solved.
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Ann Edie
> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 3:40 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] Family and Friends Accepting Person with Guide Dog; was:
> ...Civility
>
> Hi, Melissa and Everyone,
>
>
>
> I don't think this type of thing happens too often to guide dog handlers in
> places of public accommodation, unless the establishment is owned/run by
> persons whose culture views dogs as unclean or unsuitable for indoor
> presence, because most people know about guide dogs and admire the work they
> do.  However, I think it may happen more often to persons with other
> disabilities who use service dogs, especially persons with disabilities
> which are not immediately apparent to the casual observer, such as the
> person in the story about the change of service at the diner when she
> appeared with her service dog, because there is some doubt in the minds of
> the facility management that the use of the animal is legitimate.
>
>
>
> I do think that quite a few blind people find that some of their friends or
> relatives might not accept the dog at first or even never, or might treat
> them differently once they have a guide dog, because the use of the dog does
> subtley change the relationship between the blind person and his/her family
> members and friends.  Some may not be able to accept the greater
> independence and confidence of the blind person, and some may just not like
> dogs and not want to spend much time with someone who always brings the dog
> along.  Some people just don't like the smell, hair, licking, toenails
> scratching, tail-wagging, and who knows what else about dogs and just can't
> stand to have a dog around them, no matter how well they liked the blind
> person before he/she got the guide dog.
>
>
>
> As to how it should be handled, this is an individual decision and depends
> on the relationship between the people.  It is certainly important to have
> discussions before getting a guide dog with those with whom one lives or is
> very close, to make sure that one understands how the other people feel
> about one's obtaining a guide dog.  Most of the guide dog programs have
> materials which can be used to start such discussions with one's family
> members and close friends.  Usually, family members are thrilled to have a
> highly-trained and very friendly canine join their family or circle of
> friends, and the biggest problem the new dog handler will have is keeping
> his family members and friends from taking liberties and trying to become
> too friendly with the dog.  If someone close to the prospective handler
> absolutely cannot live with the person's decision to get a guide dog, then
> the blind person has to make the judgment as to which is more important to
> him/her, the choice of a mobility technique that maximizes his/her
> independence, confidence, and opportunity to pursue his/her life goals, or
> the relationship with the person who cannot accept the dog.  Things are not
> usually quite so black-and-white, though, and compromises can usually be
> made.
>
>
>
> Before one gets a guide dog, it is also important to have some discussion
> with the management of one's place of employment, although this conversation
> is different because it is not meant to elicit the feelings of the
> management on the subject of one's getting the dog guide, but to inform the
> management that one is exercising his/her right to have the dog in the work
> environment as a reasonable accommodation, and to clarify how persons in the
> workplace are to interact, or not interact, with the dog and its handler.
> It is hard to know whether having a guide dog enhances or decreases one's
> attractiveness to a prospective employer, or if it has any bearing on one's
> chances for employment above and beyond the fact of one's blindness as such.
> But I think it can go either way, again, depending on the particular place
> of employment and individual managers.
>
>
>
> My own agency would be thrilled to employ persons with disabilities who use
> service animals.  Even before I came to the agency, there was an office dog,
> who happened to be a pet of one of the office staff.  Now, besides that dog,
> one of our Directors regularly brings her dog (which she is trying to train
> to be a therapy dog) to the office.  And everyone is excited whenever I am
> at the office with Panda.  But not all employers have this kind of attitude,
> of course.  But they all must obey the law, regardless of their personal
> preferences.  There may have to be some adjustments to office arrangements
> or schedules if there are other employees present with legitimate dog
> allergies which rise to the level of a disability.  And of course, the dog
> must be clean and well-behaved, so as to reflect well upon the company as
> well as the individual handler, especially if the work involves contact with
> customers or the public in general.  But basically, the employer does not
> have the prerogative of saying that they are glad to employ you, but not if
> you choose to be accompanied by a service dog.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Ann
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of melissa padron
>
> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 11:54 AM
>
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Diner Must Provide Access, Not Civility
>
>
>
> Is it common for guide dog users to encounter this type of situation? Say a
> business, family member, or friend were fine with the individual before a
> guide dog, but then once the person gets a guide dog they ignore them or
> show negativity towards them or whatever you want to call it. How should
> this type of situation be handled?
>
>
>
> I don't have a guide dog so I can't really draw from my own experiences....
>
>
>
> Melissa
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Vanessa Lowery<vlowery at dhr.state.md.us>
>
> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users' 'NAGDU Mailing List
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>
> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:16 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Diner Must Provide Access, Not Civility
>
> Well, don't know about others, but I don't patronize a place of business to
> determine if I win a popularity contest based on the pesence of absence of
> my guide dog.  I go because I want service, and I use a guide dog.  They can
> jsut get over it, for all I care.  If they serve me with the nastiest
> attitude they can conjur up, more power to them as long as I am served.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Vanessa Lowery, LGSW
>
> Adult and Community Services Division
>
> Adult Services Screening Unit
>
> 410-853-3550
>
> VLowery at dhr.state.md.us
>
>
>
>
>
>>>> "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)"<REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>  7/30/2012
>>>> 1:34 PM>>>
> But it sounds like this woman wants the staff to like her. They don't for
> whatever reason when she's got the dog with her. Talking to them won't make
> them like her and it is the liking she wants.
>
> Many people leave their dogs home for Bible study.
>
> This really is no different.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Vanessa Lowery
>
> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:02 PM
>
> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users' 'NAGDU Mailing List
>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Diner Must Provide Access, Not Civility
>
>
>
> If this is a service dog, and she needs to dog to perform certain tasks,
> what would be the logic in leaving the dog at home in order to go to the
> restaurant?  I wonder if there are some missing pieces to this story.  But
> I'm certainly not going to leave my dog at home just because the staff has a
> bee up ther (you fill in the blank) because they don't like me nor my dog.
> They will serve me like they should any other customer, and if they don't, I
> would ahve a little chat with the Better Busines Bureau.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Vanessa Lowery, LGSW
>
> Adult and Community Services Division
>
> Adult Services Screening Unit
>
> 410-853-3550
>
> VLowery at dhr.state.md.us
>
>
>
>
>
>>>> "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)"<REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>  7/30/2012
>>>> 11:51 AM>>>
> I wonder what would happen if she just went to the diner without her dog?
>
> I'm also wondering how many people we're talking about. Four or five?? It
> hurts but isn't that many.
>
> I also wonder what's going on, and wonder why if this places means so much
> to her she just doesn't go without the dog?
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Lyn Gwizdak
>
> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 1:18 PM
>
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Diner Must Provide Access, Not Civility
>
>
>
> Strange case.  I wonder what is...the rest of the story.  It is very odd
> that a place of business where everyone there - employees and customers
> alike - were friendly pre-dog and nasty post-dog.  It really makes no sense.
>
> you might find one of two employees or a customer or two, but EVERYONE
> becoming nasty?
>
>
>
> Are there anyone on this list who knows the place and might like to just go
> in and see what happens?
>
>
>
> Lyn and Landon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Ginger Kutsch"<GingerKutsch at yahoo.com>
>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>
> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 9:09 AM
>
> Subject: [nagdu] Diner Must Provide Access, Not Civility
>
>
>
>
>
>> Diner Must Provide Access, Not Civility
>> By ADAM KLASFELD
>> Source: http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/07/27/48772.htm
>> MANHATTAN (CN) - A New York City diner did not discriminate against a
>> disabled woman who said that waiters gave her a cold shoulder once she
>> starting bringing a service dog into the restaurant, an appellate
>> court ruled.
>>      Cheryl Krist, whose combination of asthma, arthritis and tremor
>> has hurt her mobility since 2003, bought the dog five years later to
>> cope with her symptoms.
>>      At the time, she said, she had been a loyal customer of the
>> Coopertown Diner, owned by Michael Kolombos and his self-named
>> corporation, for nearly two decades.
>>      "Coopertown, for Krist, had been 'like... Cheers... you went in
>> and you knew people and people knew you and you were friendly and
>> everything was fine,'" the appellate court summarized, quoting the
>> trial transcript.
>>      But she said that "all went right out the window" after she
>> brought the dog, according to the court.
>>      The 2nd Circuit decision, written by Judge Amalya Kearse and
>> co-signed by Judges Susan Carney and Clifford Wallace, outlines what
>> the undisputed trial evidence showed.
>>      "The first time she took the dog to the restaurant, Joe Mugno, a
>> waiter with whom she frequently had had lunch, asked her if her dog was
>> a service dog, using a tone of skepticism. Krist responded that it was
>> a service dog, and she and Mugno had no further conversations about the
>> dog; but Mugno never had lunch with her again. Krist testified that on
>> this occasion, none of the other employees of the restaurant spoke to
>> her, even to exchange pleasantries. In addition, one of the customers,
>> who had sat with Krist every day she was at Coopertown for 10 years,
>> refused to sit with her, never sat with her again, and stopped speaking
>> to her.
>>      "Krist also testified that there were incidents in which
>> [co-owners Fotios] Batas or Michael Kolombos 'yelled' at her. Thus, on
>> her second visit to Coopertown with the dog, a few days after the
>> first, Batas, from behind the counter on the opposite side of the
>> restaurant, stared at the dog and made growling sounds," the decision
>> states.
>>      At one point, Krist and Batas quarreled about whether the dog barked.
>> She claimed it made a "boof" sound, but he still ordered her to leave
>> the restaurant.
>>      After more such incidents, Krist says she decided to stop going to
>> Coopertown in September 2009, and she filed a federal lawsuit seeking
>> punitive damages and an injunction.
>>      U.S. District Judge George Daniels found after a three-day bench
>> trial that Krist showed "no evidence that any of these owners of this
>> restaurant or employees of this restaurant treated plaintiff any
>> differently because she was disabled.
>>      "There is no evidence of that from the 20 years before she had the
>> dog, and there is no evidence of that when she got the dog," he
>> emphasized.
>>      The judge added that the Americans with Disabilities Act was
>> intended to safeguard access, not friendliness.
>>      "The ADA doesn't prohibit the conduct at issue here, complaining
>> about the dog's handling and the dog's behavior, even if done in a rude
>> and insensitive manner -if I could even characterize it as that,"
>> Daniels wrote.
>> "[That] is not what the ADA is intended to reach. This may have been
>> thought of like Cheers, but the ADA does not guarantee that kind of
>> atmosphere.
>> The
>> ADA prohibits discrimination and denial of use and enjoyment of public
>> facilities."
>>      The three-judge panel agreed with this reading of the statute."We
>> reject Krist's contention that Title III imposes a civility code, and
>> we see no error in the findings or conclusion of the district court,"
>> the decision states.
>> HomeBack to Top
>> Courthouse News ServicePrivacy Policy
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