[nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users

[Tami Kinney]

Lyn,

I asked because I was wondering if it were a weird phenomenon peculiar 
to Portland. Sheesh! Since I've observed the dog and handler together 
over time, that adds to my shock that people would do this. And claim 
they are just trying to help, naturally. Well, that is common to this 
particular set of individuals, and they get pretty snarky with those 
whom they believe don't listen to all the helpful advice and do 
everything exactly as instructed while also falling all over themselves 
in gratitude. Sigh. I think you're right that this is because of 
marginalization. So I feel sad as well as frustrated and well, angry.

I did get quite a taste of that when I was young as a young woman with a 
career in the corporate world back when girl geeks just were not okay. 
/lol/ Being a geek, I didn't care. When I was very young, since I ended 
up going to work and putting off more college, some of the behaviors of 
other women in the office towards each other and towards me were 
confusing until I figured it out. Then again, being a nerd/geek/whatever 
kinda girl who had some business outfits and put on makeup because that 
was what you were supposed to do before you go to work, I had not turned 
into a socially intelligent sort. So I guess by the time I figured out 
what was up with some of these others, I had also incidentally figured 
out that ignoring them and just being me at a professional level was the 
best strategy ever. Still, now that I'm older and snarlier, seeing that 
again and sometimes more strongly in the blind community when we've been 
making all these strides...

Oh, I guess that's some of it. We've made huge strides, and with 
technology coming along to give us access to career and academic 
opportunities and communication over distance for more knowledge, more 
and more blind people are growing and achieving in ways they might not 
have been able to manage not that many years ago. To some, this is 
wonderful to watch and cheer even while we work to make or own gains. To 
others... It must be very threatening. I still don't entirely get it, 
but I try to remember that since I have lived so much of my life being 
seen as sighted because it took me quite a while to get to the "legal 
blindness" line, then I missed being so thoroughly conditioned to accept 
the low expectations and marginalization. Even when I want to slap 
people for trying to force those low expectations on me or someone else. 
Like I said, I've gotten old and snarly ahead of schedule. /lol/

Since I'm sitting back and watching -- and armchair quarterbacking, no 
doubt -- I am curious to see how the program responds and all. That is 
not up to me to comment on or go giving names over, though. I am merely 
curious, since I've missed on this aspect of being a guide dog user by 
rolling my own. /lol/ The same crowd has appeared to be attempting to 
give me grief over that, but since I can quite cheerfully ignore them, 
or give accurate information and so forth if I have time and think it is 
worthwhile and will do some good... They can say whatever they like on 
the list or off list because, you know, what are they gonna do to force 
my compliance with their wisdom and knowledge about what I should do 
with my privately owned and trained dog? /lol/ Suggestions or shared 
knowledge that I can use to be a better handler or anything else, I 
always appreciate and tell them so. /smile/

Tami

On 06/10/2012 11:20 AM, Lyn Gwizdak wrote:
> Now, this is an interesting topic! I thought this was a weird phenominum
> peculiar to San Diego! Back in 1988, when I moved here, I had a
> problem-child of a dog that ultimately led to her retirement a couple of
> years later. Also, after that fiasco, The Seeing Eye actually told me
> straight out that the problem wasn't my fault at all and that they
> didn't put out "borderline" dogs like that one anymore. To make a long
> story short, at the time TSE used correction methods evidently not used
> by the California schools. I belong to a blind center where most of the
> guide dog users have California school dogs. Instead of helping me with
> the problems I was having, they just went behind my back and complained
> to TSE. TSE essentially blew them off as busybodies as I was also in
> close working relationship on the problems with them and they knew what
> was going on anyway.
>
> Several years later, after I retired a dog from a California school, had
> some foot, knee, and ankle problems, was injured on the trolley, I
> applied for a new dog. The same busybodies were at it again for old
> reasons and new reasons. As a result, I was rejected by two California
> schools - all based on hearsay and things not even true. I applied back
> to TSE and they accepted me right away! They heard the same crap but
> they already knew me and blew the troublemakers off. Now, the busybodies
> have given up because I will only go to TSE and not bother with schools
> who just listen to crap.
>
> Now, have I reported anyone to their school? Yes on two occassions. One
> was a person whose dog constantly attacked the other dogs - mine
> included - at our center. And after I spoke to the person first and
> after that person blew me off and got nasty about it and their failure
> to do something about the problem. The other time was when a person here
> was applying to TSE. I knew this person to be mentally unhealthy and she
> was very abusive to her former dog - kicking it when she got mad at
> anything. Evidently, TSE received other negative stuff and they rejected
> this person. The school's interviewer must have also seen that this was
> not a good applicant either.
>
> That is pretty bad for listers from another list to do this to a person.
> This type of thing makes being on lists unsafe. I'm glad this hasn't
> gone on in this list or the other ones I'm on. We need to be supportive
> of each other in solving our problems. We should be able to feel that we
> are friends who understand. After all, we are all guide dog users for
> the most part and some of us have had a long history of using dogs and
> others are brand new to it. People who tear down others on a list and
> report them to the person's school are only indulging in
> marginalizational behaviors and we need to stop that. We already have
> people out there who do this to us as it is. Let's make sure we are
> treating each other as we want to be treated ourselves. If a person is
> having problems with their dog, I first tell them to talk to their
> school because the schools differ on things.
>
> Lyn and Landon
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry D. Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 2:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users
>
>
>> I think it would be sort of rude to report a user from a list. Because
>> the list members are using the list to get input as to handle such
>> issues as handling, medical or training issues. The fact that most
>> write to a list is to check and evaluate what others have experienced.
>> And, the issue might not be there issue but someone elses. If I
>> observed the behavior and judged it serious, then, I would report.
>> Maybe if I knew the person I might ask them about it but for me to
>> report it it would have to be really obvious!
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurel" <laurel.stockard at gmail.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 5:23 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users
>>
>>
>>> Personally, I would only report another guide dog user if it was a
>>> huge issue, such as their guide dog attacked mine, or they were
>>> clearly abusing their dog, or their life or the dog's life was clearly
>>> in danger. Example of this would be if I saw somebody beating their
>>> dog or something crazy that I know none of you all would ever even
>>> think about doing. I would never report somebody just because they did
>>> things differently. I might disagree with a way that another handler
>>> might do something, but ultimately, it's none of my business how other
>>> people decide to handle their dogs.
>>>
>>> I have seen people try to report other people though. I have observed
>>> situations where people didn't agree with a specific individuals
>>> course of action in a particular situation and because of that they
>>> attempted to make this person's life hell. All I will say on the topic
>>> is, if a person is mature enough and responsible enough to have a
>>> guide, and is probably an adult, then act like it. Treat people the
>>> way you wanna be treated. I have seen this happen and I've seen how
>>> nasty it can get.
>>>
>>> Anyway, yes, this does happen, most of the time without merritt, but
>>> on occasion I would say there are good reasons to report somebody. I
>>> would never report somebody though unless I was absolutely, 100% sure
>>> that something horrible was going on.
>>> Anyway, hope that sort of answers your question,
>>> Laurel and Stockard
>>>
>>> On 6/9/12, Larry D. Keeler <lkeeler at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> Not me! I would only report on really big issues that I have observed.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Tami Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 1:30 PM
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> My question is this: Do guide dog users routinely report other
>>>>> guide dog
>>>>> users to their training program and trainer for minor mishaps
>>>>> mentioned on
>>>>>
>>>>> discussion lists. Or because the guide dog user being reported
>>>>> doesn't use
>>>>>
>>>>> the collar the reporter believes they should use, stuff like that?
>>>>> And do
>>>>>
>>>>> they do it in a way that makes the one they are reporting sound super
>>>>> irresponsible and unwilling to listen to help? For that matter,
>>>>> would most
>>>>>
>>>>> trainers take these reports seriously, over the information given
>>>>> by the
>>>>> guide dog user who has been reported to them?
>>>>>
>>>>> Okay, here's my long explanation behind the questions:
>>>>>
>>>>> Since I'm an owner-trainer, the notion that another guide dog user
>>>>> might
>>>>> report me to my trainer for any reason has never troubled my fluffy
>>>>> little
>>>>>
>>>>> head before.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only I recently found out that this sort of thing actually happens!
>>>>> Not
>>>>> for witnessed events of great severity as some of the "what would
>>>>> you do"
>>>>>
>>>>> discussions of awhile ago, where there was a scenario involving one
>>>>> guide
>>>>>
>>>>> dog attacking another and causing injury and another involving a
>>>>> guide dog
>>>>>
>>>>> user reportedly regularly blowing a street crossing so badly as to
>>>>> cause
>>>>> risk of traffic accidents in addition to putting himself and his
>>>>> dog in
>>>>> danger. In those, I think a few people raised the notion of getting in
>>>>> touch with the guide dog user's school but I don't remember that
>>>>> there was
>>>>>
>>>>> a consensus that this would be an appropriate course of action.
>>>>> They were
>>>>>
>>>>> "what if" questions, so no consensus was needed. /smile/
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, I'm pretty shocked to learn that there are guide dog users who
>>>>> will report other guide dog users for blurbs on e-mail discussion
>>>>> lists.
>>>>> Not this one, but it recently happened. And now I find out it has
>>>>> happened
>>>>>
>>>>> before, with the same group of people doing the reporting.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, let's say that I mention in that group that Mitzi did X in random
>>>>> chatter, thinking I was among friends. Suddenly, some people are
>>>>> asking me
>>>>>
>>>>> questions, which I answer to clear things up... Then they start insist
>>>>> that I said something 3 months ago that contradicts what I just
>>>>> said about
>>>>>
>>>>> what Mitzi did yesterday, and then I get upset and rattled and try to
>>>>> clear things up.... So then there's blood in the water.
>>>>>
>>>>> Next thing I know, I get a letter from my trainer about what I said
>>>>> on the
>>>>>
>>>>> list and then another one which is where I find out people from
>>>>> this group
>>>>>
>>>>> have been getting in touch with him/her repeatedly about how they're
>>>>> helping me but I won't listen and stuff like that, because I don't do
>>>>> exactly what they tell me to do faithfully no matter what it is.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since I know the people involved and the dog in question fairly
>>>>> well, I
>>>>> wasn't surprised by the verbal attack by a certain few members of the
>>>>> group. Sigh. Maybe they do think they're helping, but... Um... Oh,
>>>>> well. I
>>>>>
>>>>> was just shocked to learn that one or more of them would go so far
>>>>> as to
>>>>> call the trainer on another user because of a blip on a list.
>>>>> Sheesh! I
>>>>> guess that this actually goes on in that group. Heavens! Oddly, the
>>>>> "helpers" there chat a lot on that list and go to the same school
>>>>> and have
>>>>>
>>>>> the same trainer... Which makes me wonder if they should get a
>>>>> great big
>>>>> van and fill it with crates and take the whole lot of dogs back to
>>>>> school.
>>>>>
>>>>> /lol/ I'm delving in sarcasm there, but the list of things I can
>>>>> recall
>>>>> that these helpful guide dog users have reported their dogs getting
>>>>> up to
>>>>>
>>>>> are fairly amazing. They're all relatively new dogs, young dogs, so
>>>>> I tend
>>>>>
>>>>> to figure the handlers are getting it worked out and can figure out
>>>>> for
>>>>> themselves if they need to contact the trainer. But, I guess, If I
>>>>> were to
>>>>>
>>>>> follow their fine example... No, of course, I won't do that. That's
>>>>> just
>>>>> so... Tacky! /lol/
>>>>>
>>>>> So my question is: Does this actually go on? Do guide dog users report
>>>>> other guide dog users just to be manipulative and retaliatory or
>>>>> whatever?
>>>>>
>>>>> Even if it's clearly stated that the guide dog user they are
>>>>> reporting is
>>>>>
>>>>> in contact with the trainer over the matter they mention?
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, I'm suddenly feeling really smug that if any of these folks
>>>>> want to
>>>>>
>>>>> report me to my trainer, they are welcome to! My trainer will treat
>>>>> their
>>>>>
>>>>> reports with all the attention they deserve.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, they've helped me, too! By explaining sternly that I should never
>>>>> stick sharp metal implements into my poodle's ear canals... I'm not
>>>>> making
>>>>>
>>>>> that up. I mean, that is a true statement, I can agree to that.
>>>>> However...
>>>>>
>>>>> Do I *look* that stupid? /lol/ I kinda figured that one out on my own
>>>>> years ago, so I don't know that telling me to do something I know
>>>>> better
>>>>> than to do is helpful. I've been helped to understand the bus routes
>>>>> around my home. Again, apparently, I really am too stupid to work
>>>>> that out
>>>>>
>>>>> on my own somehow... Sheesh!
>>>>>
>>>>> So I haven't fallen all over myself in gratitude or listened,
>>>>> really... So
>>>>>
>>>>> I could be reported, I am sure! Well, and I don't have a certified
>>>>> guide,
>>>>>
>>>>> no ID card to flash... Why would I owner-train when I could get a
>>>>> certified guide dog? Um... For those who are relatively new enough
>>>>> to have
>>>>>
>>>>> not read any of those discussions, there is no such thing as a
>>>>> certified
>>>>> guide dog in terms of the ADA and access to places of public
>>>>> accommodation. The guide dog training programs must be certified
>>>>> for the
>>>>> consumer's protection. The trainers must also be certified to work
>>>>> at the
>>>>>
>>>>> certified guide dog training program. The dogs are not certified.
>>>>> The nice
>>>>>
>>>>> ID cards often have the relevant portions of the law printed on them,
>>>>> which does make them useful. They do not grant you access to
>>>>> anything at
>>>>> all, and it is illegal for anyone to ask you to show them. /smile/
>>>>> It's
>>>>> your dog's training for your disability that counts, and your dog's
>>>>> good
>>>>> behavior, etc., once you walk into a place. But I have a feeling I am
>>>>> being "taught by example" for being the other guide dog user's
>>>>> friend and
>>>>>
>>>>> for being an owner-trainer by having things addressed to me that
>>>>> make a
>>>>> point of mentioning the flashing of ID cards. /lol/ I've never even
>>>>> said
>>>>> there what I *really* think of that practice! It's anyone's choice
>>>>> what
>>>>> they do with the ID card from their school, so why get uptight
>>>>> about it?
>>>>> /lol/
>>>>>
>>>>> Tami
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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