[nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users

Tue Jun 12 01:32:19 UTC 2012

I wasn't clear on that.  If I'm not asked and the problem doesn't affect me, 
I don't get involved at all.  If someone has a problem with their dog and 
ask me about what I'd do aboout it, I wouold tell them that they need to 
talk to their school because sometimes a school different from mine will 
have used different training for that dog and I don't know their particular 
training.  Other things I know and can help.  Hope that cleared it up for 
you, RJ.

Lyn and Landon
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users

> Lyn, I personally its not my place to get involved when it come to the way 
> someone uses their dog. RJ
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Debbie Cole" <debbieanne1124 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 2:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users
>
>
> This is why several of my friends are giving up on school trained dogs
> for owner-training dogs because of people on lists or so called
> friends are reporting them hence ahving to go back to school for more
> training for one problem or another.
> Debbie
>
> On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Lyn Gwizdak <linda.gwizdak at cox.net> 
> wrote:
>> Now, this is an interesting topic! I thought this was a weird phenominum
>> peculiar to San Diego! Back in 1988, when I moved here, I had a
>> problem-child of a dog that ultimately led to her retirement a couple of
>> years later. Also, after that fiasco, The Seeing Eye actually told me
>> straight out that the problem wasn't my fault at all and that they didn't
>> put out "borderline" dogs like that one anymore. To make a long story
>> short, at the time TSE used correction methods evidently not used by the
>> California schools. I belong to a blind center where most of the guide 
>> dog
>> users have California school dogs. Instead of helping me with the 
>> problems
>> I was having, they just went behind my back and complained to TSE. TSE
>> essentially blew them off as busybodies as I was also in close working
>> relationship on the problems with them and they knew what was going on
>> anyway.
>>
>> Several years later, after I retired a dog from a California school, had
>> some foot, knee, and ankle problems, was injured on the trolley, I 
>> applied
>> for a new dog. The same busybodies were at it again for old reasons and 
>> new
>> reasons. As a result, I was rejected by two California schools - all 
>> based
>> on hearsay and things not even true. I applied back to TSE and they
>> accepted me right away! They heard the same crap but they already knew me
>> and blew the troublemakers off. Now, the busybodies have given up because 
>> I
>> will only go to TSE and not bother with schools who just listen to crap.
>>
>> Now, have I reported anyone to their school? Yes on two occassions. One
>> was a person whose dog constantly attacked the other dogs - mine 
>> included -
>> at our center. And after I spoke to the person first and after that 
>> person
>> blew me off and got nasty about it and their failure to do something 
>> about
>> the problem. The other time was when a person here was applying to TSE. I
>> knew this person to be mentally unhealthy and she was very abusive to her
>> former dog - kicking it when she got mad at anything. Evidently, TSE
>> received other negative stuff and they rejected this person. The school's
>> interviewer must have also seen that this was not a good applicant 
>> either.
>>
>> That is pretty bad for listers from another list to do this to a person.
>> This type of thing makes being on lists unsafe. I'm glad this hasn't gone
>> on in this list or the other ones I'm on. We need to be supportive of 
>> each
>> other in solving our problems. We should be able to feel that we are
>> friends who understand. After all, we are all guide dog users for the 
>> most
>> part and some of us have had a long history of using dogs and others are
>> brand new to it. People who tear down others on a list and report them to
>> the person's school are only indulging in marginalizational behaviors and 
>> we
>> need to stop that. We already have people out there who do this to us as 
>> it
>> is. Let's make sure we are treating each other as we want to be treated
>> ourselves. If a person is having problems with their dog, I first tell 
>> them
>> to talk to their school because the schools differ on things.
>>
>> Lyn and Landon
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry D. Keeler" 
>> <lkeeler at comcast.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 2:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users
>>
>>
>>> I think it would be sort of rude to report a user from a list. Because
>>> the list members are using the list to get input as to handle such 
>>> issues as
>>> handling, medical or training issues. The fact that most write to a list 
>>> is
>>> to check and evaluate what others have experienced. And, the issue might
>>> not be there issue but someone elses. If I observed the behavior and 
>>> judged
>>> it serious, then, I would report. Maybe if I knew the person I might ask
>>> them about it but for me to report it it would have to be really 
>>> obvious!
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurel" <laurel.stockard at gmail.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 5:23 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users
>>>
>>>
>>>> Personally, I would only report another guide dog user if it was a
>>>> huge issue, such as their guide dog attacked mine, or they were
>>>> clearly abusing their dog, or their life or the dog's life was clearly
>>>> in danger. Example of this would be if I saw somebody beating their
>>>> dog or something crazy that I know none of you all would ever even
>>>> think about doing. I would never report somebody just because they did
>>>> things differently. I might disagree with a way that another handler
>>>> might do something, but ultimately, it's none of my business how other
>>>> people decide to handle their dogs.
>>>>
>>>> I have seen people try to report other people though. I have observed
>>>> situations where people didn't agree with a specific individuals
>>>> course of action in a particular situation and because of that they
>>>> attempted to make this person's life hell. All I will say on the topic
>>>> is, if a person is mature enough and responsible enough to have a
>>>> guide, and is probably an adult, then act like it. Treat people the
>>>> way you wanna be treated. I have seen this happen and I've seen how
>>>> nasty it can get.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, yes, this does happen, most of the time without merritt, but
>>>> on occasion I would say there are good reasons to report somebody. I
>>>> would never report somebody though unless I was absolutely, 100% sure
>>>> that something horrible was going on.
>>>> Anyway, hope that sort of answers your question,
>>>> Laurel and Stockard
>>>>
>>>> On 6/9/12, Larry D. Keeler <lkeeler at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Not me! I would only report on really big issues that I have observed.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Tami Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 1:30 PM
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> My question is this: Do guide dog users routinely report other guide
>>>>>> dog
>>>>>> users to their training program and trainer for minor mishaps 
>>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>> on
>>>>>>
>>>>>> discussion lists. Or because the guide dog user being reported 
>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>> use
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the collar the reporter believes they should use, stuff like that? 
>>>>>> And
>>>>>> do
>>>>>>
>>>>>> they do it in a way that makes the one they are reporting sound super
>>>>>> irresponsible and unwilling to listen to help? For that matter, would
>>>>>> most
>>>>>>
>>>>>> trainers take these reports seriously, over the information given by
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> guide dog user who has been reported to them?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Okay, here's my long explanation behind the questions:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since I'm an owner-trainer, the notion that another guide dog user
>>>>>> might
>>>>>> report me to my trainer for any reason has never troubled my fluffy
>>>>>> little
>>>>>>
>>>>>> head before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only I recently found out that this sort of thing actually happens! 
>>>>>> Not
>>>>>> for witnessed events of great severity as some of the "what would you
>>>>>> do"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> discussions of awhile ago, where there was a scenario involving one
>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>
>>>>>> dog attacking another and causing injury and another involving a 
>>>>>> guide
>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>
>>>>>> user reportedly regularly blowing a street crossing so badly as to
>>>>>> cause
>>>>>> risk of traffic accidents in addition to putting himself and his dog 
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> danger. In those, I think a few people raised the notion of getting 
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> touch with the guide dog user's school but I don't remember that 
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> was
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a consensus that this would be an appropriate course of action. They
>>>>>> were
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "what if" questions, so no consensus was needed. /smile/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, I'm pretty shocked to learn that there are guide dog users 
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> will report other guide dog users for blurbs on e-mail discussion
>>>>>> lists.
>>>>>> Not this one, but it recently happened. And now I find out it has
>>>>>> happened
>>>>>>
>>>>>> before, with the same group of people doing the reporting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, let's say that I mention in that group that Mitzi did X in random
>>>>>> chatter, thinking I was among friends. Suddenly, some people are 
>>>>>> asking
>>>>>> me
>>>>>>
>>>>>> questions, which I answer to clear things up... Then they start 
>>>>>> insist
>>>>>> that I said something 3 months ago that contradicts what I just said
>>>>>> about
>>>>>>
>>>>>> what Mitzi did yesterday, and then I get upset and rattled and try to
>>>>>> clear things up.... So then there's blood in the water.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Next thing I know, I get a letter from my trainer about what I said 
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> list and then another one which is where I find out people from this
>>>>>> group
>>>>>>
>>>>>> have been getting in touch with him/her repeatedly about how they're
>>>>>> helping me but I won't listen and stuff like that, because I don't do
>>>>>> exactly what they tell me to do faithfully no matter what it is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since I know the people involved and the dog in question fairly well, 
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> wasn't surprised by the verbal attack by a certain few members of the
>>>>>> group. Sigh. Maybe they do think they're helping, but... Um... Oh,
>>>>>> well. I
>>>>>>
>>>>>> was just shocked to learn that one or more of them would go so far as
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> call the trainer on another user because of a blip on a list. Sheesh! 
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> guess that this actually goes on in that group. Heavens! Oddly, the
>>>>>> "helpers" there chat a lot on that list and go to the same school and
>>>>>> have
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the same trainer... Which makes me wonder if they should get a great
>>>>>> big
>>>>>> van and fill it with crates and take the whole lot of dogs back to
>>>>>> school.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /lol/ I'm delving in sarcasm there, but the list of things I can 
>>>>>> recall
>>>>>> that these helpful guide dog users have reported their dogs getting 
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>
>>>>>> are fairly amazing. They're all relatively new dogs, young dogs, so I
>>>>>> tend
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to figure the handlers are getting it worked out and can figure out 
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> themselves if they need to contact the trainer. But, I guess, If I 
>>>>>> were
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>
>>>>>> follow their fine example... No, of course, I won't do that. That's
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> so... Tacky! /lol/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So my question is: Does this actually go on? Do guide dog users 
>>>>>> report
>>>>>> other guide dog users just to be manipulative and retaliatory or
>>>>>> whatever?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even if it's clearly stated that the guide dog user they are 
>>>>>> reporting
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>
>>>>>> in contact with the trainer over the matter they mention?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, I'm suddenly feeling really smug that if any of these folks 
>>>>>> want
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>
>>>>>> report me to my trainer, they are welcome to! My trainer will treat
>>>>>> their
>>>>>>
>>>>>> reports with all the attention they deserve.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, they've helped me, too! By explaining sternly that I should never
>>>>>> stick sharp metal implements into my poodle's ear canals... I'm not
>>>>>> making
>>>>>>
>>>>>> that up. I mean, that is a true statement, I can agree to that.
>>>>>> However...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do I *look* that stupid? /lol/ I kinda figured that one out on my own
>>>>>> years ago, so I don't know that telling me to do something I know
>>>>>> better
>>>>>> than to do is helpful. I've been helped to understand the bus routes
>>>>>> around my home. Again, apparently, I really am too stupid to work 
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> out
>>>>>>
>>>>>> on my own somehow... Sheesh!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I haven't fallen all over myself in gratitude or listened, 
>>>>>> really...
>>>>>> So
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I could be reported, I am sure! Well, and I don't have a certified
>>>>>> guide,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> no ID card to flash... Why would I owner-train when I could get a
>>>>>> certified guide dog? Um... For those who are relatively new enough to
>>>>>> have
>>>>>>
>>>>>> not read any of those discussions, there is no such thing as a
>>>>>> certified
>>>>>> guide dog in terms of the ADA and access to places of public
>>>>>> accommodation. The guide dog training programs must be certified for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> consumer's protection. The trainers must also be certified to work at
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> certified guide dog training program. The dogs are not certified. The
>>>>>> nice
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ID cards often have the relevant portions of the law printed on them,
>>>>>> which does make them useful. They do not grant you access to anything
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> all, and it is illegal for anyone to ask you to show them. /smile/ 
>>>>>> It's
>>>>>> your dog's training for your disability that counts, and your dog's
>>>>>> good
>>>>>> behavior, etc., once you walk into a place. But I have a feeling I am
>>>>>> being "taught by example" for being the other guide dog user's friend
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>> for being an owner-trainer by having things addressed to me that make 
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> point of mentioning the flashing of ID cards. /lol/ I've never even
>>>>>> said
>>>>>> there what I *really* think of that practice! It's anyone's choice 
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> they do with the ID card from their school, so why get uptight about
>>>>>> it?
>>>>>> /lol/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tami
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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