[nagdu] overhead obstacles

[Ann Edie]

Hi, Julie,

First, I think it's great that Monty is careful about obstacles, including
overhead obstacles, and you don't want to untrain that careful attitude in
an attempt to build a better method for proceeding around them.  Second, I
personally wouldn't want my guide necessarily to work up close enough to
every obstacle so that I could reach out and touch it, because it might be
dangerous, for example, if the obstacle were downed or hanging power lines,
or an open manhole or sinkhole, etc.  Third, I would imagine that both you
and Monty still have memories of your step off that high curb that caused
your broken foot (or was it your ankle) not so long ago.  So I would think
that Monty is making sure he keeps you away from drop-offs, and I hope that
you are being ever-mindful not to step out in front of Monty when
investigating why he may have stopped.

So, I'm not sure this will help you, but I will run through my thinking as
it unfolds when I encounter similar situations as you described when I'm out
walking with Panda, and I'll include the cues that I give her and the
information that she gives me, so that you can figure out if there are any
pieces that you might want to add to the conversation between you and Monty.

First, I will say that usually if we're walking along a sidewalk, or the
left side of a road without sidewalk, and there is either an obstacle on the
ground or an overhead obstacle, that Panda will usually just take me around
the obstacle without stopping.  So, if Panda stops in this same situation,
if we're walking on the left side of the street where there are no
sidewalks, I assume that there is an obstacle, and that she is waiting for
me to check to make sure that the traffic is clear, and to give her the cue
to go around the object, which will take us out into the traffic lane,
around the obstacle, and back to the curb on the other side of the obstacle.
Sometimes either by hearing sound or a sound shadow, or by echolocation, I
can tell whether the obstacle is something at ground level or an overhead
obstacle.  Sometimes I can feel shade or hear breeze rustling leaves if the
obstacle is a tree branch.  Then I will ask Panda to hup up or go forward a
bit, and if she feels it is safe, she will walk forward and if the obstacle
is low enough that she can reach it, she will touch it with her nose--for
example, if it is a chain across a driveway or construction tape across a
sidewalk or part of the street.  (I don't seem to be able to detect these
obstacles by hearing or echolocation.)  If she does go forward a few steps
and stop and I can feel her nose go up or she tosses her head, I assume the
obstacle is an overhead which is too high for her to reach.  Then I might
reach out to find it and duck under it if I find a tree branch.  But if I do
decide to go under the overhead obstacle, I drop the harness handle and heel
her under it, because I want to make a clear distinction between this and
her just guiding me forward without stopping for the overhang.  And before I
go under the overhang, I always praise and reward her for stopping and
letting me know that the obstacle is there.

If we're walking along a sidewalk, and Panda stops for what I assume is an
obstacle of some kind, and she doesn't move close enough for me to touch it
when I ask her to hup up, then I will ask her to "find the way."  Usually, I
will first ask her to find the way and indicate the direction away from the
street, "Find the way left" if the street is on our right.  If there is a
clear path around the obstacle in that direction, she will take me around
the obstacle that way, for example, if there was a taped-off piece of
sidewalk and there was some lawn or a parking lot to the left that she could
take me through.  If she doesn't start to move when I ask her to find the
way left, or if she presses against my leg as if to say, "no, that's not a
good choice," then I will try the other direction, "Find the way right."  If
this necessitates our going off the curb and into the street, then Panda
will turn right and take me to the curb and stop, just as she would at any
other curb, and wait for me to give the forward cue.  Then, as soon as we
step down off the curb, I will ask her to turn left and walk along the curb
until we are past the obstacle.  I will pretty continually be asking her to
stay over left, and as soon as she thinks it is safe, she will turn and face
the curb to indicate that we can now go back up onto the sidewalk and
continue walking straight forward.

If, when I have asked her to find the way left, and then to find the way
right, she has refused to move or has pressed against my leg, then I assume
that there is no obvious way around the obstacle, or no way that Panda deems
safe, in any case.  So at that point I would be listening for some sign of
other people who might be able to let me know what the situation is and how
best to get around it.  If at any time Panda turns around and takes me back
the way we came, away from the obstacle, I am going to trust that there is
good reason for that decision, even if I don't have any idea of what that
reason is.  I have heard of cases where a guide has decided to turn back
because there was a 6-foot alligator on the sidewalk ahead or there were
live power lines down across the road or the road was flooded, etc., and I
wouldn't want to do anything to discourage this use of intelligent
disobedience in my guide.  So I would probably reinforce this decision even
if I don't know for sure that it is the one I would have made if I had been
aware of all the circumstances.

A funny story about obstacle avoidance:--
When I was in training with my first guide dog, a chocolate Lab named
Bailey, the trainers had set up some construction tape around a piece of
sidewalk on our route.  I had chosen to work this route under blindfold to
avoid any interference of my remaining vision with the work of the guide
dog.  So when Bailey stopped, I asked him to work around the obstacle first
in the direction away from the street, and then in the direction toward the
street, which we executed well, according to the review of our instructor at
the end of the route.  The next day Bailey stopped at about the same point
in the route, and again I asked him to work around the obstacle, and again
we went to the curb, down into the street, along the curb, back up onto the
sidewalk, turned back parallel to the street, and continued on our way.  It
was only when we got to the end of the route and got the appraisal of our
day's work from the instructor that I found out that my dog had executed a
perfect obstacle avoidance procedure around a non-existent obstacle!  Since
the behavior of working around that spot had been reinforced the first day,
even though to the dog at least, it made no sence to go around a little line
of orange construction tape which he could easily have walked under (or
knocked over or pushed aside or whatever), he figured that that is just what
was called for at that point in the route, whether or not the little orange
tape was there.  This is, I guess, how "superstitious" behaviors get
established.  But I would rather have to retrain just walking straight along
a sidewalk where there is now no obstacle than to have the dog allow me to
encounter an obstacle in a way that might not be safe for either the guide
or myself.

Anyway, I hope there is something in there that you can use in thinking of
how to improve communication with Monty in situations where there is an
obstacle to work around.

Best,
Ann

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Julie J.
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 7:14 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] overhead obstacles

Monty and I have been struggling for a while now with overhead 
obstacles.   I need to figure out a game plan and get on it.  He's 
stopping too far out so I don't always understand that he's stopping for a
tree branch or whatever.  I'll tell him to go forward or around or whatever
and his responses vary.  Sometimes he'll refuse, sometimes he'll go and I
run into the branch and sometimes he'll do some really amazing intricate
guide work to weave me through the mess.

I've been trying to get him to work up closer to the obstacle so I can reach
it and know what's going on, but it's not been exceptionally successful.  So
I'm open to ideas, suggestions or anything anyone has to offer.
How exactly do you guys work overhead obstacles?  Do you go off the sidewalk
and around? Or duck down and go under? Or backtrack and go a different way?
Does your guide stop for an overhead or does the dog automatically lead you
around it?

He's not ignoring the overheads.  We are just having difficulty in
understanding each other, which leads to me giving confusing directions. 
  I want to get this worked out before I really mess up his previous
training and he stops indicating them all together.

For the new folks, I have owner trained Monty so I have no trainer or school
to call.  Monty is exceptionally safety conscious and works most obstacles
from a distance, which is fine when he takes me around without my additional
direction.  I also will be using clicker training to fix this snag since I
feel it is probably my issue and a miscommunication rather than blatant
goofing off on his part.

Thoughts?
Julie


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