[nagdu] Ownership of guide dog

Wed Mar 14 18:58:39 UTC 2012

In the past, TSE has had problems with finding their harnesses being sold on 
eBay to who knows.  All the schools have their name stamped on the backstrap 
of the harness and people can see this.  GDB actually has a cross plate on 
the handle that has the school's name and logo on it.

I have no problem in returning the harness to the school if you no longer 
have the dog or a current dog from the same school.  I have kept Jacob's 
harness as a spare one to use in rainy weather.  Seeing Eye knows I have it 
and they told me that it was OK to have one of their harnesses as long as I 
had a dog from their school.  Also, you can buy extra harnesses and such 
from them and many of the other schools won't even allow their graduateas to 
purchase a spare!  That means that if something happens to your dog's 
harness, you are stuck heeling the dog while you use a cane until the school 
can mail or bring you a new one.  Totally unacceptable!  Yeah, like you 
getting only one set of car keys and if they got lost or stolen, you can't 
drive the car until the company gets new keys to you - unacceptable!

As far as harming the school's reputation if a harness gets into the wrong 
hands, it can happen.  Suppose a person gets a hold of a TSE harness and 
puts it on a dog not trained to be a guide.  That person gets hit by a car 
and the rescue people see the harness that says "The Seeing Eye" on the 
backstrap of the harness.  If that rescue person has never seen a guide dog, 
they may think TSE does a lousey job of training.  This scenerario can be 
kind of far fetched, but it could happen.  The other reason  - and more like 
it - is that the schools use old harnesses for training the dogs before wwe 
get them and a new harness to go with the dog.  This does save money for the 
school because a good harness is expensive to make.

We can keep the collars and leashes as a memento of past dogs.  I still have 
a fur saver one that I got with a dog I got years ago.  I know of a school 
that doesn't even allow one to keep these items and I think that's terrible. 
Interestingly, J&J Dog Supply Wholesalers sells a "service dog leash" that 
is IDENTICAL to the one used by GDB - I have one.

This is all just my own opinion and I do see the potential of paternalism in 
the whole issue of the schools retaining ownership of equipment.  This along 
with contracts.  I got burned by both issues.  Short version - I retired a 
dog and gave it to a friend.  She had a guide dog from the same school (not 
TSE) and then sent that dog back sometime after getting my retired dog and 
moving out of state.  She kept the harness for her sent-back dog.  I sent 
back my harness to the school.  Later, after I had a dog friom another 
school and healed from an injury (about a year later) I reapplied to the 
school for a new dog.  They denied me for "violating my contract" and I 
supposedly gave the woman my harness to use the dog with.  She actually used 
the one she kept on my retired dog.  But I got blamed for this.  After this, 
I applied to Seeing Eye and got a dog from there and I will NOT go to 
another school that has a contract or any paternalistic rules or policies - 
EVER AGAIN!

I'm not going to trash the school and my experience with it was very 
unfavorable and I will never go back there.  They do train good dogs and I 
know folks here with dogs from there.  The dogs are good and the people are 
happy and that's fine.  I know that I felt very humiliated and angry at the 
paternalistic manner in which I was treated and I wish all the schools were 
like TSE.  TSE's policies have been in place for over 80 years and they 
work!

Lyn and Landon
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog

> You have a very good point Rebecca. For my pet dogs, I keep their collar 
> with all the rabies and yearly license tags.
> brenda
>
> On 3/13/2012 8:38 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
>> While I understand this to some extent, I'd like to know if this has 
>> happened and any real impact it had on the schools.
>> We found a picture of me hugging my first guide dog. I'm smiling and it's 
>> Christmas. We know because the tree is also in the picture. It's a great 
>> picture.
>> When we found it, a flood of emotions came back, and I literally sat down 
>> on the floor and cried.
>>
>> Both my dogs are gone now.  I deeply regret not keeping their harnesses 
>> and leashes, as they are objects I can touch, and were so important. 
>> This is especially true as my daughter has begun to want me to tell her 
>> about each dog.
>>
>> The picture is now framed and on our wall.  My husband was able to get 
>> the collar of my first dog from the family who adopted her, and we have 
>> that hung up too.
>>
>> I do wish I'd kept both harness and leash combos.
>>
>> I understand the schools' point of view.  I used to agree with it.  I 
>> don't anymore.
>>
>> I have never heard of  a school suffering negative impact from someone 
>> using a harness or leash that they shouldn't. I have to wonder if the 
>> schools have thought of the emotional impact of returning the harnesses 
>> and leashes.
>>   I suspect they have not.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 5:24 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>
>> No, I doubt it. They say they want them back, I think, so that they won't 
>> get sold to people who will use them in a phony way, such as putting on 
>> their dog to pretend it is a guide.
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>> On Mar 12, 2012, at 4:16 PM, Hannah Chadwick wrote:
>>
>>> Cindy,
>>> I thought it's because the harnesses and leashes are expensive and 
>>> that's
>>> why they are loaning them out to us.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Cindy Ray
>>> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 1:54 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>>
>>> That is an interesting analogy about the harness being the keys. TSE
>>> maintains ownership of their harness;they have never asked for it back; 
>>> I've
>>> always returned them because I had no reason not to. But that is an
>>> interesting analogy. I don't want them retaining ownership of my dog and
>>> they don't, but I don't have a problem with them retaining ownership of 
>>> my
>>> harness, which I didn't even know about until recently. What is that 
>>> about?
>>> I do not know.
>>> Cindy
>>>
>>>
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