[nagdu] Ownership of guide dog

RJ Sandefur joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
Thu Mar 15 00:06:32 UTC 2012 

So you didn't have to go to Campis for training with your dog? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog


> Marion
> I understand the reason behind returning a guide dog under 5 years old if 
> the handler is unwilling or unable to use the dog as a guide.  But it 
> seems to me this rule means the handler doesn't really have full 
> ownership.  There have been posts on this lists about retaining harness 
> and/or leash of a guide that has passed on versus returning it to the 
> school as the equipment is a comfort to them.  A dog is a being and a 
> family member.  If the handler dies or becomes unable to use the dog as a 
> guide after bonding and bringing that animal into the family it must be 
> returned to GDF just like a piece of equipment.  Not sure this is any 
> different than the schools that retain ownership for one or two years and 
> then give full ownership to the handler without requiring a return of the 
> dog who has worked with the handler for less than 5 years.
>
> Brenda
>
>
>
> On 3/14/2012 2:56 PM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>> Lyn,
>>    I'm not really sure what you mean by "true ownership". Contracts are 
>> simply written agreements between parties entering into a cooperative 
>> relationships that outline the terms and conditions of that relationship. 
>> Written agreements help prevent disagreements between the parties and 
>> provide resolutions when disagreements arise. I have a written agreement 
>> with all of my consumers that put such things in writing as how close I 
>> must be to electrical outlets, how far I must be from spraying water, how 
>> much and when I will be paid, and penalties for breach of contract.
>>    The Guide Dog Foundation where I received training has transferred 
>> ownership of my dog to me on the condition that, should I be unable or 
>> unwilling to use him as a guide dog before he turns five years old, I 
>> will return him to the school so he can be placed with someone else. I 
>> was willing to sign such an agreement for the benefit of being provided 
>> community training, a service not offered by the other programs that 
>> transfer ownership. Though this is a string attached to my ownership, it 
>> is a string I agreed to. In spite of this one string, I still have 
>> complete ownership of my dog and GDF has no right to interfere with my 
>> ownership, with the exception of this provision.
>>    Guide Dogs of America also transfers full ownership of the dog upon 
>> completion of training and, I believe, so does Southeastern Guide Dogs.
>>
>> fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>
>>
>>> Also, the schools need to get rid of the contracts that must be signed 
>>> before getting the dogs.  I find the contracts to be as offensive as the 
>>> school retaining ownership.  The contracts are a "string" to real 
>>> ownership.
>>>
>>> I think Seeing Eye is the only school that I know of that has absolutely 
>>> NO strings attached to ownership and is the only school that I know that 
>>> has true ownership of the dog.  Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
>>>
>>> Lyn and Landon
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 12:12 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Marion and list
>>>> I look forward to the completion of the NAGDU survey.  I never would 
>>>> have considered ownership an important issue until I started reading 
>>>> posts from this list.  Now, my first choices will be only 
>>>> full-ownership schools.  If I really find I like a school with a one or 
>>>> two year *probation* I may consider them, but I will focus on 
>>>> full-ownership schools.
>>>>
>>>> I have one question - I thought GDF had something where if the handler 
>>>> dies within 5 years the dog must be returned to the school.  If this is 
>>>> true, this is not full ownership.  In this case, the family loses 2 
>>>> members at once.  I'm not sure If I read this on the NAGDU list via a 
>>>> post or actually on GDF's web site.  I hope NAGDU finds out what the 
>>>> true story is on this.
>>>>
>>>> Brenda
>>>>
>>>> On 3/13/2012 7:47 AM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>>>> Brenda,
>>>>>    NAGDU is in the process of conducting a survey of guide dog 
>>>>> training programs and their policies. To the best of my knowledge, 
>>>>> Guide Dogs of America (GDA), Guide Dog Foundation (GDF), Southeastern 
>>>>> Guide dogs, and The Seeing Eye are the only programs that transfer 
>>>>> ownership upon completion of training. GDF has the option of retaining 
>>>>> ownership for a specified period of time in cases in which they are 
>>>>> unsure if the match will work out. Their approach is one of having a 
>>>>> trial period before making the decision. This is not their usual 
>>>>> policy; rather an option to give the consumer the chance to see if it 
>>>>> will work out. If there are any others, please let me know and, if 
>>>>> possible, provide the ownership agreement.
>>>>>    I am of the opinion that retaining ownership of a dog for any 
>>>>> period of time after completion of training as a matter of policy is 
>>>>> founded in paternalism. It sends a message that the program has the 
>>>>> belief blind people, as a group, must prove themselves worthy and 
>>>>> competent of this privilege. The premise is wrong and offensive to me 
>>>>> as a blind person. NAGDU is urging all training programs to transfer 
>>>>> real ownership to the consumer upon completion of training and to 
>>>>> implement due process policies for the repossession of the dog. to the 
>>>>> best of my knowledge, none of the programs who retain ownership have 
>>>>> any published due process for this purpose. Again, if my assertion is 
>>>>> incorrect, please provide me with evidence of this.
>>>>>
>>>>> fraternally yours,
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 9:18 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Can someone tell us the schools that have immediate ownership and 
>>>>>> those that have ownership after a year or two and those that retain 
>>>>>> ownership?The survey (can't remember the organization) of all the 
>>>>>> schools was done in 2006 and things have changed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> then there is the issue of ownership if the handler passes on.  That 
>>>>>> dog becomes part of the family and the family loses two members at 
>>>>>> once. Not sure I like this in the case of one school if the team has 
>>>>>> been together less than 5 years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my research I have found only 2 schools giving full ownership and 
>>>>>> I don''t live in the right states for one of the schools.
>>>>>> Brenda
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3/12/2012 8:46 AM, Cindy Ray wrote:
>>>>>>> It is a shame to see a pet fat and lazy, or a guide fat and lazy for 
>>>>>>> that matter. If you have a pet, though, nobody takes it away from 
>>>>>>> you. You own it. The school has recourse even if you own the dog; 
>>>>>>> and dogs will be taken away from blind people if it is observed that 
>>>>>>> they are abusing them. It has been done. Also, animal rights 
>>>>>>> advocates will trounce on you all of the time for even using a dog 
>>>>>>> for a guide. If I have a pet dog and can retain ownership of it 
>>>>>>> right off, then the same should be true of my guide dog. Any time a 
>>>>>>> pet or guide or any service animal goes out to an owner, the is 
>>>>>>> potential for abuse. I don't want to see that and it is sad, but the 
>>>>>>> school's retaining ownership of that dog doesn't really solve that 
>>>>>>> issue so much.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>
>>
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