[nagdu] Ownership of guide dog

Wed Mar 14 23:58:19 UTC 2012

Marion
I understand the reason behind returning a guide dog under 5 years old 
if the handler is unwilling or unable to use the dog as a guide.  But it 
seems to me this rule means the handler doesn't really have full 
ownership.  There have been posts on this lists about retaining harness 
and/or leash of a guide that has passed on versus returning it to the 
school as the equipment is a comfort to them.  A dog is a being and a 
family member.  If the handler dies or becomes unable to use the dog as 
a guide after bonding and bringing that animal into the family it must 
be returned to GDF just like a piece of equipment.  Not sure this is any 
different than the schools that retain ownership for one or two years 
and then give full ownership to the handler without requiring a return 
of the dog who has worked with the handler for less than 5 years.

Brenda

On 3/14/2012 2:56 PM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
> Lyn,
>    I'm not really sure what you mean by "true ownership". Contracts 
> are simply written agreements between parties entering into a 
> cooperative relationships that outline the terms and conditions of 
> that relationship. Written agreements help prevent disagreements 
> between the parties and provide resolutions when disagreements arise. 
> I have a written agreement with all of my consumers that put such 
> things in writing as how close I must be to electrical outlets, how 
> far I must be from spraying water, how much and when I will be paid, 
> and penalties for breach of contract.
>    The Guide Dog Foundation where I received training has transferred 
> ownership of my dog to me on the condition that, should I be unable or 
> unwilling to use him as a guide dog before he turns five years old, I 
> will return him to the school so he can be placed with someone else. I 
> was willing to sign such an agreement for the benefit of being 
> provided community training, a service not offered by the other 
> programs that transfer ownership. Though this is a string attached to 
> my ownership, it is a string I agreed to. In spite of this one string, 
> I still have complete ownership of my dog and GDF has no right to 
> interfere with my ownership, with the exception of this provision.
>    Guide Dogs of America also transfers full ownership of the dog upon 
> completion of training and, I believe, so does Southeastern Guide Dogs.
>
> fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>
>
>> Also, the schools need to get rid of the contracts that must be 
>> signed before getting the dogs.  I find the contracts to be as 
>> offensive as the school retaining ownership.  The contracts are a 
>> "string" to real ownership.
>>
>> I think Seeing Eye is the only school that I know of that has 
>> absolutely NO strings attached to ownership and is the only school 
>> that I know that has true ownership of the dog.  Correct me if I'm 
>> wrong on this.
>>
>> Lyn and Landon
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 12:12 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>
>>
>>> Hi Marion and list
>>> I look forward to the completion of the NAGDU survey.  I never would 
>>> have considered ownership an important issue until I started reading 
>>> posts from this list.  Now, my first choices will be only 
>>> full-ownership schools.  If I really find I like a school with a one 
>>> or two year *probation* I may consider them, but I will focus on 
>>> full-ownership schools.
>>>
>>> I have one question - I thought GDF had something where if the 
>>> handler dies within 5 years the dog must be returned to the school.  
>>> If this is true, this is not full ownership.  In this case, the 
>>> family loses 2 members at once.  I'm not sure If I read this on the 
>>> NAGDU list via a post or actually on GDF's web site.  I hope NAGDU 
>>> finds out what the true story is on this.
>>>
>>> Brenda
>>>
>>> On 3/13/2012 7:47 AM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>>> Brenda,
>>>>    NAGDU is in the process of conducting a survey of guide dog 
>>>> training programs and their policies. To the best of my knowledge, 
>>>> Guide Dogs of America (GDA), Guide Dog Foundation (GDF), 
>>>> Southeastern Guide dogs, and The Seeing Eye are the only programs 
>>>> that transfer ownership upon completion of training. GDF has the 
>>>> option of retaining ownership for a specified period of time in 
>>>> cases in which they are unsure if the match will work out. Their 
>>>> approach is one of having a trial period before making the 
>>>> decision. This is not their usual policy; rather an option to give 
>>>> the consumer the chance to see if it will work out. If there are 
>>>> any others, please let me know and, if possible, provide the 
>>>> ownership agreement.
>>>>    I am of the opinion that retaining ownership of a dog for any 
>>>> period of time after completion of training as a matter of policy 
>>>> is founded in paternalism. It sends a message that the program has 
>>>> the belief blind people, as a group, must prove themselves worthy 
>>>> and competent of this privilege. The premise is wrong and offensive 
>>>> to me as a blind person. NAGDU is urging all training programs to 
>>>> transfer real ownership to the consumer upon completion of training 
>>>> and to implement due process policies for the repossession of the 
>>>> dog. to the best of my knowledge, none of the programs who retain 
>>>> ownership have any published due process for this purpose. Again, 
>>>> if my assertion is incorrect, please provide me with evidence of this.
>>>>
>>>> fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>> Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 9:18 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Can someone tell us the schools that have immediate ownership and 
>>>>> those that have ownership after a year or two and those that 
>>>>> retain ownership?The survey (can't remember the organization) of 
>>>>> all the schools was done in 2006 and things have changed.
>>>>>
>>>>> then there is the issue of ownership if the handler passes on.  
>>>>> That dog becomes part of the family and the family loses two 
>>>>> members at once. Not sure I like this in the case of one school if 
>>>>> the team has been together less than 5 years.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my research I have found only 2 schools giving full ownership 
>>>>> and I don''t live in the right states for one of the schools.
>>>>> Brenda
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3/12/2012 8:46 AM, Cindy Ray wrote:
>>>>>> It is a shame to see a pet fat and lazy, or a guide fat and lazy 
>>>>>> for that matter. If you have a pet, though, nobody takes it away 
>>>>>> from you. You own it. The school has recourse even if you own the 
>>>>>> dog; and dogs will be taken away from blind people if it is 
>>>>>> observed that they are abusing them. It has been done. Also, 
>>>>>> animal rights advocates will trounce on you all of the time for 
>>>>>> even using a dog for a guide. If I have a pet dog and can retain 
>>>>>> ownership of it right off, then the same should be true of my 
>>>>>> guide dog. Any time a pet or guide or any service animal goes out 
>>>>>> to an owner, the is potential for abuse. I don't want to see that 
>>>>>> and it is sad, but the school's retaining ownership of that dog 
>>>>>> doesn't really solve that issue so much.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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