[nagdu] Ownership of guide dog

Marion Gwizdala blind411 at verizon.net
Thu Mar 15 01:07:08 UTC 2012 

R.J.,
    Some training programs will offer community training to those who are 
veteran handlers. It is offered on a case-by-case basis.

Marion


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog


> Marion the guide dog schools I've spoken to concerning community training 
> have told me they only offer this training to you, if you've been to their 
> campus. RJ
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 4:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>
>
>> Margo,
>>    I did hear that The Seeing eye offered this to its consumers; however, 
>> I have not received a dog from TSE. In fact, GDF offers communityh 
>> training to new consumers.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 3:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>
>>
>>> the Seeing Eye offers home training to its graduates.  You can have 
>>> total home training.  It doesn't happen that often but Seeing Eye does 
>>> have that.
>>>
>>> margo and Arrow
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:56 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>>
>>>
>>>> Lyn,
>>>>    I'm not really sure what you mean by "true ownership". Contracts are 
>>>> simply written agreements between parties entering into a cooperative 
>>>> relationships that outline the terms and conditions of that 
>>>> relationship. Written agreements help prevent disagreements between the 
>>>> parties and provide resolutions when disagreements arise. I have a 
>>>> written agreement with all of my consumers that put such things in 
>>>> writing as how close I must be to electrical outlets, how far I must be 
>>>> from spraying water, how much and when I will be paid, and penalties 
>>>> for breach of contract.
>>>>    The Guide Dog Foundation where I received training has transferred 
>>>> ownership of my dog to me on the condition that, should I be unable or 
>>>> unwilling to use him as a guide dog before he turns five years old, I 
>>>> will return him to the school so he can be placed with someone else. I 
>>>> was willing to sign such an agreement for the benefit of being provided 
>>>> community training, a service not offered by the other programs that 
>>>> transfer ownership. Though this is a string attached to my ownership, 
>>>> it is a string I agreed to. In spite of this one string, I still have 
>>>> complete ownership of my dog and GDF has no right to interfere with my 
>>>> ownership, with the exception of this provision.
>>>>    Guide Dogs of America also transfers full ownership of the dog upon 
>>>> completion of training and, I believe, so does Southeastern Guide Dogs.
>>>>
>>>> fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:17 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Also, the schools need to get rid of the contracts that must be signed 
>>>>> before getting the dogs.  I find the contracts to be as offensive as 
>>>>> the school retaining ownership.  The contracts are a "string" to real 
>>>>> ownership.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think Seeing Eye is the only school that I know of that has 
>>>>> absolutely NO strings attached to ownership and is the only school 
>>>>> that I know that has true ownership of the dog.  Correct me if I'm 
>>>>> wrong on this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 12:12 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Marion and list
>>>>>> I look forward to the completion of the NAGDU survey.  I never would 
>>>>>> have considered ownership an important issue until I started reading 
>>>>>> posts from this list.  Now, my first choices will be only 
>>>>>> full-ownership schools.  If I really find I like a school with a one 
>>>>>> or two year *probation* I may consider them, but I will focus on 
>>>>>> full-ownership schools.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have one question - I thought GDF had something where if the 
>>>>>> handler dies within 5 years the dog must be returned to the school. 
>>>>>> If this is true, this is not full ownership.  In this case, the 
>>>>>> family loses 2 members at once.  I'm not sure If I read this on the 
>>>>>> NAGDU list via a post or actually on GDF's web site.  I hope NAGDU 
>>>>>> finds out what the true story is on this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brenda
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/13/2012 7:47 AM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>>>>>> Brenda,
>>>>>>>    NAGDU is in the process of conducting a survey of guide dog 
>>>>>>> training programs and their policies. To the best of my knowledge, 
>>>>>>> Guide Dogs of America (GDA), Guide Dog Foundation (GDF), 
>>>>>>> Southeastern Guide dogs, and The Seeing Eye are the only programs 
>>>>>>> that transfer ownership upon completion of training. GDF has the 
>>>>>>> option of retaining ownership for a specified period of time in 
>>>>>>> cases in which they are unsure if the match will work out. Their 
>>>>>>> approach is one of having a trial period before making the decision. 
>>>>>>> This is not their usual policy; rather an option to give the 
>>>>>>> consumer the chance to see if it will work out. If there are any 
>>>>>>> others, please let me know and, if possible, provide the ownership 
>>>>>>> agreement.
>>>>>>>    I am of the opinion that retaining ownership of a dog for any 
>>>>>>> period of time after completion of training as a matter of policy is 
>>>>>>> founded in paternalism. It sends a message that the program has the 
>>>>>>> belief blind people, as a group, must prove themselves worthy and 
>>>>>>> competent of this privilege. The premise is wrong and offensive to 
>>>>>>> me as a blind person. NAGDU is urging all training programs to 
>>>>>>> transfer real ownership to the consumer upon completion of training 
>>>>>>> and to implement due process policies for the repossession of the 
>>>>>>> dog. to the best of my knowledge, none of the programs who retain 
>>>>>>> ownership have any published due process for this purpose. Again, if 
>>>>>>> my assertion is incorrect, please provide me with evidence of this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> fraternally yours,
>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>>>>> Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 9:18 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can someone tell us the schools that have immediate ownership and 
>>>>>>>> those that have ownership after a year or two and those that retain 
>>>>>>>> ownership?The survey (can't remember the organization) of all the 
>>>>>>>> schools was done in 2006 and things have changed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> then there is the issue of ownership if the handler passes on. 
>>>>>>>> That dog becomes part of the family and the family loses two 
>>>>>>>> members at once. Not sure I like this in the case of one school if 
>>>>>>>> the team has been together less than 5 years.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In my research I have found only 2 schools giving full ownership 
>>>>>>>> and I don''t live in the right states for one of the schools.
>>>>>>>> Brenda
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3/12/2012 8:46 AM, Cindy Ray wrote:
>>>>>>>>> It is a shame to see a pet fat and lazy, or a guide fat and lazy 
>>>>>>>>> for that matter. If you have a pet, though, nobody takes it away 
>>>>>>>>> from you. You own it. The school has recourse even if you own the 
>>>>>>>>> dog; and dogs will be taken away from blind people if it is 
>>>>>>>>> observed that they are abusing them. It has been done. Also, 
>>>>>>>>> animal rights advocates will trounce on you all of the time for 
>>>>>>>>> even using a dog for a guide. If I have a pet dog and can retain 
>>>>>>>>> ownership of it right off, then the same should be true of my 
>>>>>>>>> guide dog. Any time a pet or guide or any service animal goes out 
>>>>>>>>> to an owner, the is potential for abuse. I don't want to see that 
>>>>>>>>> and it is sad, but the school's retaining ownership of that dog 
>>>>>>>>> doesn't really solve that issue so much.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>
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