[nagdu] Ownership of guide dog

Margo and Arrow margo.downey at verizon.net
Thu Mar 15 00:41:57 UTC 2012 

Oh, okay, that is a bit different.

Margo and Arrow
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 4:06 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog


> Margo,
>    I did hear that The Seeing eye offered this to its consumers; however, 
> I have not received a dog from TSE. In fact, GDF offers communityh 
> training to new consumers.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 3:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>
>
>> the Seeing Eye offers home training to its graduates.  You can have total 
>> home training.  It doesn't happen that often but Seeing Eye does have 
>> that.
>>
>> margo and Arrow
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:56 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>
>>
>>> Lyn,
>>>    I'm not really sure what you mean by "true ownership". Contracts are 
>>> simply written agreements between parties entering into a cooperative 
>>> relationships that outline the terms and conditions of that 
>>> relationship. Written agreements help prevent disagreements between the 
>>> parties and provide resolutions when disagreements arise. I have a 
>>> written agreement with all of my consumers that put such things in 
>>> writing as how close I must be to electrical outlets, how far I must be 
>>> from spraying water, how much and when I will be paid, and penalties for 
>>> breach of contract.
>>>    The Guide Dog Foundation where I received training has transferred 
>>> ownership of my dog to me on the condition that, should I be unable or 
>>> unwilling to use him as a guide dog before he turns five years old, I 
>>> will return him to the school so he can be placed with someone else. I 
>>> was willing to sign such an agreement for the benefit of being provided 
>>> community training, a service not offered by the other programs that 
>>> transfer ownership. Though this is a string attached to my ownership, it 
>>> is a string I agreed to. In spite of this one string, I still have 
>>> complete ownership of my dog and GDF has no right to interfere with my 
>>> ownership, with the exception of this provision.
>>>    Guide Dogs of America also transfers full ownership of the dog upon 
>>> completion of training and, I believe, so does Southeastern Guide Dogs.
>>>
>>> fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:17 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>>
>>>
>>>> Also, the schools need to get rid of the contracts that must be signed 
>>>> before getting the dogs.  I find the contracts to be as offensive as 
>>>> the school retaining ownership.  The contracts are a "string" to real 
>>>> ownership.
>>>>
>>>> I think Seeing Eye is the only school that I know of that has 
>>>> absolutely NO strings attached to ownership and is the only school that 
>>>> I know that has true ownership of the dog.  Correct me if I'm wrong on 
>>>> this.
>>>>
>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 12:12 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Marion and list
>>>>> I look forward to the completion of the NAGDU survey.  I never would 
>>>>> have considered ownership an important issue until I started reading 
>>>>> posts from this list.  Now, my first choices will be only 
>>>>> full-ownership schools.  If I really find I like a school with a one 
>>>>> or two year *probation* I may consider them, but I will focus on 
>>>>> full-ownership schools.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have one question - I thought GDF had something where if the handler 
>>>>> dies within 5 years the dog must be returned to the school.  If this 
>>>>> is true, this is not full ownership.  In this case, the family loses 2 
>>>>> members at once.  I'm not sure If I read this on the NAGDU list via a 
>>>>> post or actually on GDF's web site.  I hope NAGDU finds out what the 
>>>>> true story is on this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Brenda
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/13/2012 7:47 AM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>>>>> Brenda,
>>>>>>    NAGDU is in the process of conducting a survey of guide dog 
>>>>>> training programs and their policies. To the best of my knowledge, 
>>>>>> Guide Dogs of America (GDA), Guide Dog Foundation (GDF), Southeastern 
>>>>>> Guide dogs, and The Seeing Eye are the only programs that transfer 
>>>>>> ownership upon completion of training. GDF has the option of 
>>>>>> retaining ownership for a specified period of time in cases in which 
>>>>>> they are unsure if the match will work out. Their approach is one of 
>>>>>> having a trial period before making the decision. This is not their 
>>>>>> usual policy; rather an option to give the consumer the chance to see 
>>>>>> if it will work out. If there are any others, please let me know and, 
>>>>>> if possible, provide the ownership agreement.
>>>>>>    I am of the opinion that retaining ownership of a dog for any 
>>>>>> period of time after completion of training as a matter of policy is 
>>>>>> founded in paternalism. It sends a message that the program has the 
>>>>>> belief blind people, as a group, must prove themselves worthy and 
>>>>>> competent of this privilege. The premise is wrong and offensive to me 
>>>>>> as a blind person. NAGDU is urging all training programs to transfer 
>>>>>> real ownership to the consumer upon completion of training and to 
>>>>>> implement due process policies for the repossession of the dog. to 
>>>>>> the best of my knowledge, none of the programs who retain ownership 
>>>>>> have any published due process for this purpose. Again, if my 
>>>>>> assertion is incorrect, please provide me with evidence of this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> fraternally yours,
>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 9:18 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can someone tell us the schools that have immediate ownership and 
>>>>>>> those that have ownership after a year or two and those that retain 
>>>>>>> ownership?The survey (can't remember the organization) of all the 
>>>>>>> schools was done in 2006 and things have changed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> then there is the issue of ownership if the handler passes on.  That 
>>>>>>> dog becomes part of the family and the family loses two members at 
>>>>>>> once. Not sure I like this in the case of one school if the team has 
>>>>>>> been together less than 5 years.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my research I have found only 2 schools giving full ownership and 
>>>>>>> I don''t live in the right states for one of the schools.
>>>>>>> Brenda
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3/12/2012 8:46 AM, Cindy Ray wrote:
>>>>>>>> It is a shame to see a pet fat and lazy, or a guide fat and lazy 
>>>>>>>> for that matter. If you have a pet, though, nobody takes it away 
>>>>>>>> from you. You own it. The school has recourse even if you own the 
>>>>>>>> dog; and dogs will be taken away from blind people if it is 
>>>>>>>> observed that they are abusing them. It has been done. Also, animal 
>>>>>>>> rights advocates will trounce on you all of the time for even using 
>>>>>>>> a dog for a guide. If I have a pet dog and can retain ownership of 
>>>>>>>> it right off, then the same should be true of my guide dog. Any 
>>>>>>>> time a pet or guide or any service animal goes out to an owner, the 
>>>>>>>> is potential for abuse. I don't want to see that and it is sad, but 
>>>>>>>> the school's retaining ownership of that dog doesn't really solve 
>>>>>>>> that issue so much.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>
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>
>
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