[nagdu] Ownership of guide dog

Wed Mar 21 20:55:59 UTC 2012

Marion, 

It's so painful too to see the affect of such intimidation when you happen
to be with the next school that person attends. 

Trust is a very fragile thing and we all need to keep that in mind as we
deal with each other in these very personal relationships. 

Jenine Stanley
jeninems at wowway.com
http://www.twitter.com/jeninems

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Marion Gwizdala
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 4:37 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog

Jenine,
    What you say is so very true. I know firsthand how one particular
training program tried to intimidate me when I advocated for a consumer and
attempted to revise the facts. Furthermore, I know that there is an
impression among consumers that the training programs all talk to each other
and resisting the paternalism or maltreatment of one program might have a
negative effect upon being accepted for training by another. Whether this
actually happens or not (I believe it does), such implications seem to be
present, as many consumers believe this.
    I was also informed by a staff member of one training program that they
had a black list of individuals who had real issues they attempted to
resolve or dared to disagree with their practices. In the words of
Gallagher, "Makes you go 'Hmm!'"

Fraternally yours,
Marion

Fraternally yours,
Marion

    There is
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog

> Rebecca,
>
> It's a very emotional issue. I can understand why someone would not want 
> to
> undertake a legal case against a school, no matter how wronged they think
> they have been or how right their cause.
>
> Let's say I file a law suit against School X for breach of contract.
>
> School X is going to drag out everything it can to show that I am not a 
> good
> handler, that I am not of good character, etc.
>
> Many of these people have been through the emotional wringer during the
> whole process of the school taking their dogs. They may not want to do 
> that
> all over again in a court setting. Even if they are in the right and have
> done nothing incorrectly, it's still a lot to process. I wouldn't be too
> hard on anyone who chose not to take the case forward into court.
>
> Jenine Stanley
> jeninems at wowway.com
> http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 1:14 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>
> They have what sounds like a case that would stand up and a lawyer they
> aren't needing to pay out of pocket, yet they are taking no action to put
> these contracts to a legal test.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 1:08 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>
> Please define what exactly you mean by willing.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 9:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>
>
>>        So what you're saying is that the people who have had dogs
>> repossessed have not been willing to go to court?
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 8:07 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>
>> Rebecca,
>>    Yes, those who have had their dogs repossessed without cause or due
>> process certainly have the right to litigate this. The challenge is
>> convincing them to do so and finding legal counsel willing to take it
>> on a contingency basis. We do have the counsel, we just need to find
>> the litigant. Civil action is very time consuming and most would
>> rather just cut their losses rather than engage in the process.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 2:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>
>>
>>> So if Fidelco's contract wouldn't hold up in court, can't the people
>>> who had their dogs taken away go to court?
>>>
>>> Is this happening anyplace? If not, why not?
>>> Also, if it is illegal to have a contract written as Fidelco has
>>> written theirs, how are the schools that don't grant legal ownership
>>> able to do this froma legal perspective?  Is it that nobody has
>>> challenged them in court?
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 7:43 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>>
>>> Ava,
>>>    Since the contract one signs with the training programs is a
>>> legally binding agreement, should an allegation of abuse, neglect, or
>>> maltreatment be made, the terms of the agreement and their legality
>>> would be reviewed.
>>> In
>>> the case of Fidelco, for instance, a legal expert in the area of
>>> consumer and ownership rights has told me the terms of Fidelco's
>>> agreement would likely be deemed unenforceable. It basically states,
>>> "You own your dog unless we decide you don't!" Such contradictory
>>> language is logically flawed.
>>>    As for the terms of other agreements I have seen, the programs
>>> generally use the terms "evidence of abuse, neglect, or maltreatment"
>>> when referring to their right to repossess a dog. In such cases, I
>>> would assume the legal procedures and definitions of "evidence" would
>>> be used.
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Ava Foster" <avapup.7 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 9:27 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>>
>>>
>>>> Thank you all for your answers to my question about which programs
>>>> grant total ownership. It's not that I'd mind having a contract
>>>> stating a program could take a dog for abuse or such, but what
>>>> worries me is, who determines what constitutes that abuse, such as
>>>> in the example which I believe involved Fidelco. As an owner-trainer
>>>> who would NEVER abuse a dog, I'd hate to think that asking for help
>>>> could result in having a beloved family memer taken away. Thanks
>>>> again! Ava
>>>>
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>>
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