[nagdu] Dog Parks WAS Re: Working Our Dogs

Tue Nov 27 18:38:10 UTC 2012

Rebecca,

Well, apparently, or so I have been told (and there has been no question 
I was being *told*!) it depends on the program whether respecting their 
views on the evils of the dog park means "don't do it" or not. It can 
depend on ownership and/or terms in the ownership agreement, honestly. 
If that is the case for any individual who might be considering using 
the neighborhood dog park for play and fun for their guide, then I would 
say, "Don't do it if you want to keep your dog." Or, as at least one 
person here has done, talk to your program and trainer first so that 
everybody stays happy. /smile/

My only real caveat, that I intend to follow myself when/if I get a dog 
from a program -- which will be one that grants ownership upon 
graduation -- is to remember that the dog was raised in a very 
protective environment. Which means that in its formative youth, it 
wasn't learning all those doggy things from other dogs about the art of 
running wild and free in the untamed world safely. This doesn't mean I 
won't consider the value of the dog park for running exercise, play and 
socialization. It just means I will be much more careful and observant 
and all and will be more likely to decide it's not worth it because the 
dog just doesn't know how to be in that environment.

There does seem to be a fairly consistent list of dog park dangers 
behind the programs' preference that such places be avoided at all cost. 
Well at least some programs; I've gotten the list third-hand from 
various guide dog users, who cite their program as the source of the 
information. I haven't been paying attention to which programs these 
people are referring, so cannot come up with any sort of statistical 
analysis. /smile/ The list, being for the protection of the dog, is 
quite lengthy and thorough about the dangers to the dog. I would call 
most of the items risks and would call other items something else. 
/smile/ That's just me, though.

What is never mentioned is how un-blind friendly a place designed for 
dogs and dog people can really be. /lol/ There are risks and even 
dangers to any dog there and to any person there. It's just that for a 
blind person fool enough to go waltzing into such a place, mitigating 
such risks and dangers is trickier than for the sighted crowd. I 
mitigate the risks to my dog(s) by interacting with them and going 
around to be aware and also to get exercise and all for myself. I don't 
go to sit down and let my dog run unmonitored and unprotected. If I'm 
with friends who are also available to monitor and protect visually, I'm 
more likely to sit now and then and be lazy while chatting; but 
otherwise, I'm on my feet and mobile and as aware as I can be where my 
dog is and what's going on.

By now, Mitzi is doing the same for me -- monitoring and protecting. So 
that's nice. /smile/ The pup is learning that from her, in addition to 
learning to come to me or her dad if she's unsure about something that 
concerns her. Much easier letting your adult dog train your pup. /lol/ 
And I grew up with RP on a working ranch nestled up against a mountain 
wilderness area which counted as my backyard. So even though losing my 
central vision has been quite a disruption, I had the innate skills to 
manage in a dog park without undue disaster. Well, a minor disaster or 
two, but getting mowed down by flying juveniles isn't so bad when you 
fall on nice, turfy grass. /lol/

Anyway, if one does want to take one's guide dog to the dog park, one 
might want to take into account that this area was not designed for 
their safety and convenience. I'm not saying one shouldn't do such a 
thing simply because one is blind. But it's a learning process for sure. 
There may exist O&M instructors to help with that for the uninitiated to 
increase their safety during the learning process, and it never hurts to 
ask if you want that assistance. The responses I got when I asked were 
not helpful, so I just up and figured it out on my own. /lol/

Anyway, I tossed in the caveat about respecting the programs' view, just 
because last time I mentioned my nefarious activities in another forum, 
it turned out I was endangering guide dogs everywhere and so on. And on. 
/lol/ I responded once to point out that it's my own dog and to give a 
rough breakdown about how I do the risk assessment and whatever else. 
Then I dropped it. Which did not mean the subject was dropped. For 
months. I got quite bored with it even though I didn't waste energy 
responding. Yawn.

Tami

On 11/27/2012 07:59 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
> Why do you say that if a guide dog program is opposed to dog parks and off-leash activity, it should be respected, as in "don't do it"?
> I'm fine with a school saying "We didn't train your dog for this stuff, so if you do it, you need to know this. That to me is respect.
> Is this what you mean, or do you mean respect as in "Don't do it if the school says no?" If it's the latter, why do you say this?
> You trained your own dog so I'd like to know your thoughts.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 1:39 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Working Our Dogs
>
> Dar,
>
> Wait! You know me, and you're giving me an excuse to ramble? /grin/
>
> Actually, I think one reason I've been noting so much of what you've
> shared, Sarah, and the support and ideas others are giving you, is
> because so much is hauntingly familiar. Both from my past, when I was a
> sweet young thing like you and from my present, moving back to where it
> all began, so to speak. Actually, a lot of those ideas and suggestions
> have been really apt for me.
>
> So, thanks, everybody! /smile/
>
> First, I do totally get the impossibly dangerous road you mentioned,
> having just moved away from my own version. Whew! Since it was
> impossible to get anywhere without dealing with that road -- and the
> insane drivers hurtling along it in growing numbers and density -- I
> would go mad at least once a day because I just wanted to get out with
> my guide dog and go! Also, I was just too strapped for that little extra
> for the bus, and it was getting to dangerous at the bus stop, then on
> the way to the bus stop... So I would have to go mad once or twice a day
> over that... I could have called paratransit, but that was even more
> expensive and time consuming when all I wanted to do was pop out the
> door and walk to the corner market. I kept telling myself that it
> couldn't be that hard to figure out a sane, workable solution, but...
> Nope! Since even the sighted pedestrians feared to tread there and just
> quit treading, and the drivers in the neighborhoods on either side of
> that road feared for their lives trying to get on or off of it, I could
> only conclude that being stubborn enough to use it anyway would be too
> likely to be fatally stupid. This would make me crazy and I would have
> to go mad for awhile. /lol/
>
> Like you, I also felt guilty about not giving Mitzi the work and
> adventure she needed because of all of this. Oh, there were places I
> could walk, but they were few and so didn't provide the stimulation both
> of us need. I also did a fair amount of worrying that by the time we got
> ourselves moved away from that problem, I would have lost myself a dang
> good guide dog.
>
> Here are some of the ways I found to help prevent that loss and to keep
> us both sane:
>
> 1. Interactive play, in the house or in our yard, which was not ideal.
> We were in our own house on rented property. Since the owners never got
> around to bring the yard up to snuff, we were not about to pay what it
> would have taken to improve their property. Oregon is pretty bad when it
> comes to recourse for situations like that, so we did free stuff over
> time (grass clippings, working on this or that by hand) and complained a
> lot. /smile/ Still, Mitzi loves soccer and is really great about giving
> me sound cues and stuff as my vision fades. So it's good for me, too,
> and we have a lot of fun. Also, we're building our communication and
> mutual interaction and all that, which we use a lot when she's working.
> So it helped to keep that part up.
> 2. Once DD (my now husband) retired, he was able to take us over to the
> nearby park where Mitzi and I could walk together and work that way on
> the trails and so forth. There were places I could give her really good
> run play and socialization, too, and I took advantage of that. I'm an
> owner-trainer and can make my own decisions and use my own judgment when
> it comes to off leash play and even dog parks.
>
> You already know this, but I will go ahead and point out that if your
> guide dog program is against dog parks (as most are) and off leash
> outdoor activities, then you need to respect that and abide by it.
>
> Also, because my pup was raised differently, she spent her childhood and
> then youth learning how to run wild, run free, with and from other dogs.
> So she learned how to avoid many of the dangers from them. A dog raised
> by a guide dog program is generally protected from all of that, so
> reaches adulthood not having learned the lessons. Probably, when/if I
> get a program-trained dog, I won't be so blase about the risks even if
> the program is okay with my deciding on my own whether or not to take
> them. Just as I wouldn't go galloping off into the back of beyond with a
> stable-raised and trained horse like I used to on our free running
> mountain/cow horses. /smile/
>
> So I'm not suggesting you start going against what your program
> requires. Just mentioning that this was something that worked for me and
> Mitzi in our situation.
>
> If you can come up with some safe and approved equivalent, like play
> dates in a friend's fenced yard with their good dog, or in your yard if
> you have one, you can give Wizard exercise and interaction and
> socialization that he might be missing from lack of that regular work
> you would rather be giving him.
>
> 3. When we could arrange it, DD would drop me off at a mall or other
> good working place so that Mitzi and I could get in some real work and
> do refresher stuff for both of us so we didn't become hopeless. We also
>    were able to do that with a friend and her guide, while our partners
> hung out and did their own thing. So that was the best! We didn't manage
> it often, what with busy schedules and all, but it helped. Especially in
> times when the only other work Mitzi was getting was to and from the
> truck for minor errands or whatever. She did okay with that, but it
> really was far from ideal.
>
> Anyway, as for the other things, Dar mentioned, I will talk about those
> in a later message, since you and I seem to be on such a similar track
> for now. Except that you're a sweet young thing and I'm a snarly old
> fart. Teehee.
>
> Best,
>
> Tami Jarvis
>
> HTH,
>
> Tami
>
>
>
> On 11/15/2012 09:04 PM, d m gina wrote:
>> Tammy,
>> Share with Sarah in the town you live, what you are doing, getting out
>> walking your dog, and how are you learning the area.
>> Is a store near you, or do you take a buss?
>> Or do you have to wait for the car ride?
>> I hope your address got into my book.
>> Thanks,
>> Original message:
>>> Sarah and Lyn,
>>
>>> I've been enjoying getting to know you, Sarah, through the journey
>>> you've shared with us. Even though I'm an old fart like Lyn, I still
>>> remember too much about being your age in a small town, where resources
>>> are limited, so much is limited, but I needed to somehow get on with
>>> growing up and getting to the life I wanted anyway... Having no clue
>>> from never having lived an adult life, it was scary, depressing, etc. I
>>> mean, how do you deal with the struggle when you don't even know what
>>> winning it is like? Honestly! People do, apparently. Somehow, I did. But
>>> when you're in the middle of it, and it's you, and you don't know what
>>> it's like on the other side of all those barriers.... Tough stuff.
>>
>>> So I've been reading what you share and what others have to offer and
>>> trying to figure out if somehow I have something useful...
>>
>>
>>> Lyn's suggestion of an NFB Center is inspired! If you can get from where
>>> you are to there... Some VR agencies will do anything to keep their
>>> clients from anyplace so heretical (mine, in Oregon, is one). Others
>>> will do what they should by law. Others can be convinced. I think
>>> California is better about that than many others, especially for younger
>>> clients.
>>
>>> So would that maybe work? Your mother would still have the extra
>    >> financial assistance from your income while you're away, but you could
>>> be in a learning environment in which you could get much of what you
>>> need and will need, while having places to work Wizard. There is a lot
>>> of controversy (at times, anyway) about the NFB Centers approach to
>>> attendees with guide dogs, since they don't allow the use of guide dogs
>>> in class time. I think there's some easing, but can't really tell you
>>> the exact ins and outs or if they vary slightly from Center to Center.
>>
>>> Still, you can work your dog when you're not in classes, in places where
>>> it's safe to do so. Or so I assume, since they are places where the cane
>>> using students can also move around safely at will. So maybe an
>>> improvement over what you're working around now?
>>
>>> Anyway, it's a thought. What you do is up to you, of course. /smile/ You
>>> certainly have a hard row to hoe, as they say, but I can tell that you
>>> are strong and very, very bright. You won't do things as I think you
>>> should, but I'm not you and not living your life. You are and will find
>>> your way despite the added difficulties and challenges.
>>
>>> Wish I had the secret magic key, but, you know. I'm not Dumbledore! /lol/
>>
>>> Best to you in finding what you need in your circumstances.
>>
>>> Tami Jarvis
>>
>>> On 11/15/2012 04:00 PM, Lyn Gwizdak wrote:
>>>> Yeah Sarah,
>>>> Thought so.  And so is Wizard.  This is very unhealthy for both of you.
>>
>>>> Is there an NFB chapter near you?  Maybe they can connect you with a
>>>> good therapist for the depression.  I have suffered with depression for
>>>> most of my life and have been in and out of therapy myself.  No shame in
>>>> that and I'm a better person because of it.
>>
>>>> You owe it to Wizard to give him the work he needs, get yourself out -
>>>> get help and support - and start living your life.  Many of us are poor
>>>> - I get that.  many of us grew up in places with no public
>>>> transportation - I get that.  Maybe try to get into college in a larger
>>>> city where you can get around independently.  maybe go to an NFB
>>>> training center where you will learn the living skills you will need for
>>>> the rest of your life.
>>
>>>> As for Wizard, well figure out how to make him happy with work and a
>>>> purpose or do him the kindness of returning him for another more active
>>>> person to have. I'm not saying this to be mean - I'm not.  I'm just a 61
>>>> year old fart who has been around the block a time or two and have been
>>>> where you are. Please, do it for you and do it for Wizard.
>>
>>>> I'm sorry to hear that still there are parents of blind kids who think
>>>> they're doing the kid a favor by sheltering them and not teaching them
>>>> how to be adults like parents are supposed to be doing for their kids -
>>>> disabled or not.  There's just no excuse for that today with all the
>>>> information on the Internet available to parents of blind kids.  This
>>>> didn't exist in the early 1950s when i was a kid.  When I was growing
>>>> up, I didn't get sheltered but my sister did and she's the one who has
>>>> had to pay for that decision. She was never made to do anything and I
>>>> was and now she has to live with me with me taking care of her.  she
>>>> does have developmental disability along with blindness and me just
>>>> blind with some physical stuff that has showeed up with age.
>>
>>>> I grew up in a town with NO buses or anything except for folks driving
>>>> their cars.  I left town when I was 20 and went to college in Boston.
>>>> what freedom!  I could walk anywhere and i could ride the bus and
>>>> trolleys and subways anywhere - whenever i wanted.  Even the late night
>>>> parties!
>>
>>>> Please get some help!  You deserve it.
>>
>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>> "Education creates tolerance towards diversity."
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah" <coastergirl92 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 12:43 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Working Our Dogs
>>
>>
>>>>> Yeah I'm really depressed.  And when me and Wizard work we really have
>>>>> nowhere to go except around the blocks and that bores uddNow every
>>>>> time I put his harness on, he turns his head away or tries to go get
>>>>> in his bed. The instructors said he leves to work but that's not true
>>>>> now.
>>
>>>>> Sarah and Wizard
>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date sent: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 10:22:45 -0800
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Working Our Dogs
>>
>>>>> Sarah,
>>>>> I've been reading your posts and other's responses to them.  I am
>>>>> concerned
>>>>> about your having nothing to occupy your time or ability to get out
>>>>> and walk
>>>>> and work your dog.  You sound young if you're still living at home and
>>>>> your
>>>>> Mom still works.
>>
>>>>> Sarah, you need to find some volunteer work where you can do something
>>>>> useful.  I pick up some depressed and defeated signals from you and,
>>>>> boy do
>>>>> i know what that's like, and you need to get out for your own mental
>>>>> and
>>>>> physical health.  The same goes for the dog.  These dogs are bred to
>>>>> work
>>>>> and they need it.
>>
>>>>> I used to live in a place with limited bus service and I just had to
>>>>> plan
>>>>> for that.  Unfortunately, as blind people, we must live on other
>>>>> people's
>>>>> time when it comes to getting things done or going someplace.  For this
>>>>> reason, I chose to move back to the city where we have many buses that
>>>>> run
>>>>> at least every 15 minutes and a number to choose from.  Here in San
>>>>> Diego, I
>>>>> live in City Heights, a very urban area.  I live along two bus
>>>>> routes and
>>>>> these connect to all the others as well as a trolley system.  I can
>>>>> get to
>>>>> most places I want to.  Where these don't go or at night, I also have
>>>>> paratransit.  You may want to consider moving to a city where you can
>>>>> have a
>>>>> life.
>>
>>>>> In my area, there are a whole bunch of blind and disabled folks and we
>>>>> either have Section-8 Housing Vouchers or live in Senior/Disabled
>>>>> housing.
>>>>> It works.  Many don't have jobs but some of us have volunteer jobs or
>>>>> other
>>>>> activities to keep busy.  I do pet assisted therapy with Landon
>>>>> where we
>>>>> bring cheer and animals to visit those folks in facilities where they
>>>>> can't
>>>>> have a pet.  I'm active in my Democratic Party club, my LGBT community
>>>>> events, and local blind center where I do crafts and belong to the
>>>>> singing
>>>>> group for our huge fundraiser each holiday season.  When I'm not doing
>>>>> those
>>>>> things, I spend time with friends, read, watch TV, work on the
>>>>> computer.
>>
>>>>> You have a life - live it to the max!  You're only young once and it
>>>>> gets no
>>>>> easier as you age.  I sure know about that - I'm 61.  I remember all
>>>>> the
>>>>> work and partying I did in my 20s - Hahahaha!  I don't party much now.
>>
>>>>> I wish you well and hope you find the right solution for your
>>>>> situation.
>>
>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>> "Education creates tolerance towards diversity."
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Debbie Cole" <debbieanne1124 at gmail.com
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 9:13 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Working Our Dogs
>>
>>
>>>>> I agree with Julie.  Our buses here run only on the hour.  But i still
>>>>> know the schedule and get up to the hospital for PT on time and make
>>>>> arrangements to ahng out in the  hospital until 10 minutes before the
>>>>> bus should come.  It can be done.
>>
>>>>> And Sarah...  I'm a deaf/blind.  Just saying.
>>
>>>>> On 11/10/12, Julie J.  <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> What's the problem with the bus running only once an hour?  Just plan
>>>>> accordingly.  I used to live in a city where the busses ran once an
>>>>> hour
>>>>> for most of the day and longer on saturday.  It's totally doable.  Just
>>>>> wear a watch and know when the last bus is so you don't get stuck
>>>>> someplace.
>>
>>>>> You knew the bus schedule when you got your guide dog.  Nothing has
>>>>> changed.  You knew you'd have to work the dog.  I'm assuming you've
>>>>> gone
>>>>> over this with GDD.  What suggestions did they make?  Is there some
>>>>> reason those are not working for you now?
>>
>>>>> As to how much I work my guide in an average week...at least 5 days.
>>>>> He's fine with a day or two off, more than that and he gets fidgety and
>>>>> restless.   If we've had a long weekend out of town where he's worked
>>>>> some very long days in a row, I will plan for a day of no work or very
>>>>> light.  An average week of routes would include:
>>>>> 5 trips to and from my office, about 10 blocks each way
>>>>> 1 trip to the middle school about 25 minutes one way
>>>>> 1 trip to the high school about 15 minutes one way
>>>>> 1-2 errands, generally these are downtown and I do them before or after
>>>>> work so maybe an extra 1-4 blocks on top of the route to work
>>>>> 1 trip to the grocery store by car, about 1 hour in the store
>>>>> All of that stuff is pretty much guaranteed in a week, but I also
>>>>> travel
>>>>> out of town frequently.  I suppose once a month if you averaged it out
>>>>> over a year.  I also attend random meetings and teach an all day
>>>>> Saturday  class at the college 4 times in a school year.   Then
>>>>> there is
>>>>> walking nowhere in particular for exercise or to spend time with my son
>>>>> just doing something we both enjoy.  Oh and the random saturday
>>>>> mornings
>>>>> when you just have to have donuts and a mocha!
>>
>>>>> Even on Monty's days off I will still make sure he has a good amount of
>>>>> exercise by playing in the back yard or off leash running.  A note
>>>>> about
>>>>> off leash time...if you're dog isn't trustworthy off leash you
>>>>> shouldn't
>>>>> be letting him free run.  Monty is excellent off leash so he gets that
>>>>> opportunity.  Belle would be in the next county in about 3 seconds so
>>>>> she gets the Flexi leash.   Monty is a very high energy dog and needs
>>>>> this level of work.  I think Belle would be content with 2-3 days a
>>>>> week, if she were able to guide still.
>>
>>>>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> On 11/10/2012 10:35 AM, Sarah wrote:
>>>>> I live in the desert where the bus only runs ond an hour.  And my mom
>>>>> works from 4 o'clock in the morning until 3 in the afternoon so she
>>>>> usually doesn't feel like taking me anywhere.
>>
>>>>> Sarah and Wizard
>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Debbie Cole <debbieanne1124 at gmail.com
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date sent: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 10:35:39 -0800
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Working Our Dogs
>>
>>>>> Do you use a city buss or Access (Mini Van for your transit company
>>>>> for the disabled?   Unless you are in the suburbs You shouldn't be
>>>>> using that as an excuse.  When your mom goes to the amrket go along
>>>>> with her and go off on your own jsut you and Wizard and do your thing
>>>>> while she does her thing.
>>
>>>>> On 11/9/12, Sarah <coastergirl92 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I just wonder because I have nowhere to go nothing to do.  I have
>>>>> no job and there's nowhere to go where I can walk except around
>>>>> the streets of the neighborhood but he's getting bored with that
>>>>> and the weather is getting bad.  And I have no money for Access
>>>>> to go anywhere.
>>
>>>>> Sarah and Wizard
>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Chantel Cuddemi" <jawsgirl87 at gmail.com
>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date sent: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 13:15:44 -0500
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Working Our Dogs
>>
>>>>> I give Motley the weekend off.  He loves it!
>>
>>>>> Chantel and Motley
>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah
>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 12:54 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Working Our Dogs
>>
>>>>> Hello list,
>>
>>>>> I was wondering how often do you work your dogs? I feel like I
>>>>> have to work Wizard every day and I feel guilty if I just let him
>>>>> have one day off.  How long is the longest you've allied your
>>>>> dogs time off?
>>
>>
>>>>> Sarah and Wizard
>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Sheila Leigland <sleigland at bresnan.net
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,    the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date sent: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 04:52:34 -0700
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Diabetic alert dogs and how alert dogs
>>>>> arepreventing    aneed for a guide dog!
>>
>>>>> Lyn my husband and I were at the convention last weekend.  Our
>>>>> dogs misbehaved and growled and were immediately corrected.  I
>>>>> would agree with you if we chose not to bring our dogs under
>>>>> control but we did and it didn't happen again.  When you know all
>>>>> of the facts then please make judgment calls on whether a dog
>>>>> should remain in a situation.  I don't know of any dog that
>>>>> hasn't made a misstep and the important thing is that the dogs
>>>>> were corrected properly and immediately.  In fact they were still
>>>>> lying at our feet.  They didn't stand up or approach in any way.
>>
>>>>> Sheila Leigland
>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> warmly,
>>
>>>>> Debbie Cole
>>
>>>>> debbieanne1124 at gmail.com
>>
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>>
>>
>>>>> -----
>>>>> No virus found in this message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5386 - Release Date:
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>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> warmly,
>>
>>>>> Debbie Cole
>>
>>>>> debbieanne1124 at gmail.com
>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/linda.gwizdak%
>>>>> 40cox.net
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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