[nagdu] who can legally have guide harnesses?

[Lyn Gwizdak]

Yes, I'd think so.  Usually the harnesses with a school name on it actually 
still belongs to the school.  We have use of it as long as we have a dog 
from that school.  I think the problem is that someone else was selling a 
school's property without their consent on eBay.

A year or so ago, Seeing Eye had this problem of people finding guide dog 
harnesses that belonged to TSE being sold on eBay.  Then TSE graduates were 
finding these and bidding on them to buy them to return to TSE.  TSE asked 
us graduates to not do that but let them know when we saw a TSE harness on 
sale.  I think TSE has contacted eBay to ask that no more of their harnesses 
be allowed to go up for bid on eBay.  I imagine that there has been this 
problem with harnessess that belong to other schools.

I don't know if eBay will now refuse to sell ALL guide dog harnesses or just 
the ones that have a school name stamped or riveted on them.  I know that 
people do make guide dog harnesses - I know a couple of people who have done 
this to get a harness that they want instead of the one the school issued 
them.  A friend modeled a homemade harness on Fidelco's but they wanted a 
white harness so they got all the materials and made one.  I imagine that 
eBay will sell these.

About the "panties in a wad", yeah, that is very descriptive and I got the 
saying from one of my friends.  It really busted me up the fiorst time i 
heard that! LOL!

Lyn and Landon
"Education creates tolerance towards diversity."
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] who can legally have guide harnesses?


> Wouldn't the logical solution be for Ebay to not allow harnesses with 
> school names on them on the auction site? They already have policies in 
> place so people can't buy or sell drugs and children.  If this problem is 
> really *that* bad, why don't the schools and Ebay say "Ok users, no more 
> harnesses with school names on them".
> And love the panties in a wad expression. Conveys the sentiment very well.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lyn Gwizdak
> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 4:09 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] who can legally have guide harnesses?
>
> I think the schools get their panties in a wad over people getting 
> harnesses
> on eBay and such is because the harnesses have school names stamped into 
> the
> straps.  I don't think anyone cares who has Julie's harnesses or others 
> that
> are made for people with guide dogs that are owner-trained.  The ones with
> school names on them are considered school property loaned to us while we
> have our dogs.
>
> I know that in the White Cane Laws, there is a part about it being illegal
> for people other than blind folks to use a white cane like the ones we 
> use.
>
> Lyn and Landon
> "Education creates tolerance towards diversity."
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 10:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Diabetic alert dogs and how alert dogs are 
> preventinga
> need for a guide dog!
>
>
>> Well said, Julie.
>>
>> I've said it for years. There's absolutely nothing magic about guide dog
>> gear. Nothing. There's no reason it can't be bought and sold like 
>> anything
>> else. To treat it as though it were somehow special, or owning such
>> equipment were somehow wrong, or it should be regulated like tobacco or
>> firearms or marijuana is just ridiculous. Guide and service dog equipment
>> doesn't transfer any specific rights or abilities to a dog. Indeed, it
>> isn't even required that a service dog have any specific equipment. It's
>> the training that counts. It isn't where the dog was trained, or by whom.
>> Believe me, I've seen some pretty awfully behaved dogs come out of
>> programs. Not the program's fault usually, because as we all know, it's
>> our job to keep that training up, and keep the expectations we have of 
>> our
>> dogs and ourselves high.
>>
>> The guide and service dog programs are at least partially to blame for 
>> the
>> perpetuation of this attitude that there's something magic or special
>> about guide dog gear. If you ask, most of them won't tell you who makes
>> their gear. Why not? Is it some deep dark trade secret, that, if it falls
>> into the wrong hands, civilization as we know it will end? Why are
>> trainers so horrified that gear can be had from somewhere other than from
>> their controlled access to it? Some will even incorrectly state to you, 
>> in
>> class, that your dog is not legally allowed if it doesn't have its 
>> harness
>> on. (Which harness, by the way,comes from the school, who gets it from
>> whatever mysterious source it gets them from). Of course, this is all
>> nonsense.
>>
>> All of this really needs to stop.
>>
>> As for a certifying body, it sounds like a great idea, but I have so many
>> problems with it, I don't know where to start. Most of these surround who
>> will do the certifying, and how will the rights of owner trainers be
>> protected. Also who will pay for this thing.
>>
>> I don't deny that there's a problem with fake service dogs. Of course
>> there is. There are no easy solutions. The best solution though is to be
>> sure that business owners are educated as to both their rights and their
>> responsibilities. Also, we ourselves need to be educated to our rights 
>> and
>> responsibilities. Both sides need to understand that our right to be
>> accompanied by a service dog is not absolute. We also need to understand
>> that we have the right to be accompanied by a task trained service 
>> animal;
>> it is not the animal who has the right to public access. I beat this drum
>> often because it's an extremely important distinction.
>>
>> FWIW, I regularly use a third party harness on my program trained guide
>> dog. There are a couple reasons for this, none of which have a thing in
>> the world to do with the program or the training.
>>
>> Now someone tell me about this Canadian company.
>> --
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 9, 2012, at 11:15 AM, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>> How is this person who ordered a harness from Canada a problem?  For 
>>> that
>>> matter what is the problem with being able to order service dog 
>>> equipment
>>> from the internet?  I think it's a good thing.  It gives people more
>>> options and opportunities.  If this person then got her dog certified
>>> through a program, doesn't that prove that it was indeed trained and a
>>> service dog in the first place?
>>>
>>> I'm getting the impression that a lot of people have a feeling of
>>> superiority about dogs from programs.  there is nothing magical about
>>> guide dog programs. There's nothing magical about training dogs in
>>> general.  It's time consuming and labor intensive, but it's not rocket
>>> science.  anyone with some decent amount of spare time and some serious
>>> dedication can do it.
>>>
>>> It's the training that makes the difference.  I'm not sure how else to
>>> say that.  Training.
>>>
>>> It's like people are offended by the audacity of some disabled people 
>>> who
>>> venture out on their own, challenging the system of charity that's been
>>> around for ages.  Some disabled folks don't want to go to a service dog
>>> program.  Maybe it takes too much time away from their other
>>> responsibilities.  Maybe it costs too much, especially true for other
>>> types of service dogs.  Maybe the available programs don't meet their
>>> needs.  Maybe other disabilities interfere with the ability to get a dog
>>> from a program.  Perhaps they just love to train dogs and want the
>>> challenge and reward that comes with training their own dog.  There are 
>>> a
>>> lot of different reasons for not going to a program to get a service 
>>> dog.
>>> There is respect for the choice to attend whichever established program 
>>> a
>>> person feels will best meet their needs.  Why is there no respect for
>>> choosing to not attend a program?
>>>
>>> It comes down to the training.  If a dog is well behaved and is hardly
>>> noticeable when out in public, why does it matter who trained the dog?
>>> As long as the dog has been trained isn't that the important part?
>>>
>>> If a dog isn't trained appropriately or is having a bad day, then that 
>>> is
>>> an issue and needs to be addressed.  I am absolutely 110% in agreement
>>> that dogs in places where pets are not allowed need to be trained to a
>>> level that allows that dog to blend seamlessly into the background, 
>>> doing
>>> what it needs to do without being a bother to other patrons in the
>>> establishment.   Where I have a problem is this thinking that nonprogram
>>> dogs are all ill behaved beasts and all program trained dogs are perfect
>>> angels.  this is absolutely not the case.
>>>
>>> So can we please get past this hang up with where the dog came from and
>>> move on to the important part about whether or not the dog is behaving
>>> appropriately?
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/9/2012 8:56 AM, Melissa R Green wrote:
>>>> I know a person who ordered a harness from canada, and got a a school 
>>>> to
>>>> certify her pet dog as a service dog.  I did a search online and you 
>>>> can
>>>> buy a harness.  My trainer and I also did a search over the phone and
>>>> she was surprised that harnesses are being sold online.
>>>> this person might be ledgit.  But there are those who aren't ledgit.
>>>> Dar brings up a good question.  How does a blind person handle a
>>>> situation like this?
>>>> Especially, if anyone can by a harness or a vest online.  Like the
>>>> person I spoke of in the beginning of my message.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: d m gina
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 2:06 PM
>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Diabetic alert dogs and how alert dogs are
>>>> preventing a need for a guide dog!
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>> yes it does matter that the person have some kind of proof their dog is
>>>> a service dog.
>>>> What does happen when I take a stand because their dog bit mine and I
>>>> would press charges, who wins there, I have my card, I have the collar
>>>> that says seeing eye, I have a leash that says seeing eye, and I have
>>>> the harness that says seeing eye.
>>>> What makes me angry is Joe blow comes in with his dog only a collar,
>>>> and he gets in, where I have to have my dog dressed in its outfit to
>>>> work him and I am proud of this.
>>>> I am just asking from a blind persons view I wouldn't know if the
>>>> person was telling the truth or not.
>>>> I for the most part bind my own business, unless I hear dogs groweling
>>>> because they don't like set dog.
>>>> Who would I stand up for, if both persons claim they have service dogs.
>>>> I walk with no shame at all, that my dog was trained, I don't have to
>>>> studder and walk around the issue.
>>>> As what happened over the weekend.
>>>> I asked my husband if he knew this person and he said no, he couldn't
>>>> even remember who the person was that had the dog.
>>>> It is just interesting to me, to learn as working with nagdu I want to
>>>> help spread the good of this organization and can't do well if I don't
>>>> know the exact steps to take, when I can't even tell if a dog is a
>>>> service dog or not.
>>>> Oh well, I will stay a happy camper, work my dog, and just be the Dar I
>>>> know.
>>>> I will let others decide what is good and what isn't.
>>>> My specialtys can be used for other organizations.
>>>> It is ok for me to say I couldn't tell if the set dog is a service dog
>>>> or not.
>>>> As long as I take care of me that is all that matters.
>>>> We the team are doing quite well, three months into the program from
>>>> seeing eye.
>>>> he rocked at the convention, keeping himself as a little gentleman
>>>> should.
>>>> I did use the gentle leader at the dining room table so he wouldn't try
>>>> to dive for food.
>>>> One time he dove for a peace of paper, as I did ask the waitress what
>>>> he was trying to go for.
>>>> he thought it was food loll.
>>>> I understand, I didn't bring his food so he had to wait until he got
>>>> home he thought smile.
>>>> the little bowl I took I was starting to wonder if the two cups of food
>>>> would fit.
>>>> It did, and I was pleased.
>>>> the more we are a team the better.
>>>> he is starting to remember the persons car or van we travel in, and
>>>> that is good.
>>>> We went threw a parking lot, on our own where he found the correct car
>>>> on his own.
>>>> The driver and the grocery guy walked ahead.
>>>> I am so proud of this boy, I could write forever.
>>>> Thanks for asking.
>>>>
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Dar,
>>>>> If I read your post right, you are concerned with the fact that 
>>>>> someone
>>>>> brings a dog into a place where you're at.  You are totally blind and
>>>>> are
>>>>> worried about if that dog will scare the crap out of you - it growls
>>>>> menacinginly at your dog or it actually tries to attack your dog.  Is
>>>>> this
>>>>> correct?
>>>>
>>>>> I hear you on this and your concerns are very valid.  I've been a 
>>>>> guide
>>>>> dog
>>>>> user for a very long time and have been the target of several attacks
>>>>> on my
>>>>> dogs over the years.  My limited vision doesn't always see that 
>>>>> there's
>>>>> a
>>>>> menacing dog nearby but I'll hear it if it snarls at my dog.  It does
>>>>> scare
>>>>> the crap out of me.
>>>>
>>>>> What I find is that many people don't care if their dog is socialized
>>>>> for
>>>>> public access - I'm talking about pets.  People don't bother to train
>>>>> their
>>>>> dogs to walk nice on a leash. In earlier times, my dogs have been
>>>>> accosted
>>>>> by nasty pets that are not under control by their humans.  Now that
>>>>> same
>>>>> problem remains the same only now there are people who claim hidden
>>>>> disability and their dog is a service dog.  They may really have a
>>>>> disability but they do not know that they have standards that their 
>>>>> dog
>>>>> must
>>>>> adhere to.  the humans don't give a rat's behind if their dog bothers 
>>>>> a
>>>>> working guide dog or service dog walking along doing its job.  This is
>>>>> a
>>>>> huge problem in the city where people have to walk their dogs and they
>>>>> have
>>>>> all these little ankle biters.
>>>>
>>>>> Now, add to this mix the past lax rules of ADA which allowed for
>>>>> anything
>>>>> someone called a "service animal".  The owners have had no training on
>>>>> proper ettiquete with having a dog in public where pets aren't 
>>>>> allowed.
>>>>> It
>>>>> has taken us too many years - 20 years - to finally tighten up the ADA
>>>>> rules.  The horse is out of the barn and now we want to shut the door.
>>>>> Well, too late now - it's out.  And there are problems for us with
>>>>> litgitimate guide and service dogs that actually are trained to 
>>>>> perform
>>>>> a
>>>>> task to mitigate our disabilities.  And there's no real way to stop 
>>>>> the
>>>>> abuse of ADA.  The ADA prevents this by not allowing the having to 
>>>>> show
>>>>> proof via ID cards, vests, whatever.  This won't work anyway because
>>>>> people
>>>>> can always make IDs or buy vests on the Internet.
>>>>
>>>>> I think this all boils down to educating businesses to the ADA and 
>>>>> it's
>>>>> rules concerning service dogs.  We have to educate them to know that
>>>>> they
>>>>> are within their rights to kick out individuals who do not control
>>>>> their
>>>>> dogs properly.  They have to realize that they have this right and 
>>>>> will
>>>>> not
>>>>> be sued.  If they are, they think they'll lose and that will cost them
>>>>> lots
>>>>> of money.  Business owners are afraid of violating the ADA and put up
>>>>> with
>>>>> the problem children.  And, of course, there are those business people
>>>>> who
>>>>> don't care about ADA and try to deny us our rights of access.
>>>>
>>>>> A vest or ID doesn't make a dog a real service dog and it really
>>>>> doesn't
>>>>> make sense to rail on that issue.  We really need to deal with the 
>>>>> HUGE
>>>>> issue of ill behaved dogs in public and what can we do about that
>>>>> issue.
>>>>
>>>>> BTW, hope the new dog is working out well for you.
>>>>
>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>> "Education creates tolerance towards diversity."
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "d m gina" <dmgina at samobile.net>
>>>>> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 7:50 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Diabetic alert dogs and how alert dogs are
>>>>> preventing a
>>>>> need for a guide dog!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> Thanks for sharing, and yes even my guide lets me know if I am to low.
>>>>> My question never got answered for me to be satisfied.
>>>>> As a total, and this strange dog comes into play where the person says
>>>>> it is a diabetic dog, nothing on the dog to indicate that the dog is a
>>>>> service dog, just a person coming into the room with a chain collar on
>>>>> dog claiming that it is a diabetic dog.
>>>>> No coat of any kind no nothing.
>>>>> So if a total was trying to make sure that we didn't have anyone just
>>>>> bringing in their pet how would we know.
>>>>> It is obvious we didn't know at this convention.
>>>>> We as guide dog users are trying to make sure we can keep working our
>>>>> dogs for as long as possible with out any more rules to the game.
>>>>> Where I am not impressed that my neighbor can put a collar on his
>>>>> shepherd and claim it is a service dog a diabetic dog.
>>>>> I hope I made myself clear this time.
>>>>> Now my neighbor isn't claiming this, just follow the thread of writing
>>>>> thanks,
>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>> Hi gang,
>>>>
>>>>>> I will only speak to diabetic alert dogs, since there seem to be some
>>>>>> questions. There are numerous programs that train diabetic alert dogs
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> even owner-trainers. They range from the rather large and very
>>>>>> well-established Dogs 4 Diabetics (d4d) in Concord, CA to
>>>>>> smaller/newer
>>>>>> programs to owner-trained dogs. d4d is an ADI member program. ADI is
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> equivalent of IGDF, so d4d is very highly regarded in general. Some 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> smaller/newer programs do a better job than others, so those are
>>>>>> buyer-beware. Really, though, diabetic alerting is largely a matter 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> fairly straightforward scent training...so it doesn't take that long
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> many competent people have decided to train their own dogs. That can
>>>>>> be a
>>>>>> just fine option, too. Almost everyone from d4d to owner-trainer uses
>>>>>> fairly similar standards. The dogs are trained to alert their person
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> the person's blood glucose begins to drop too low (60-70, normal is 
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> least 80). If the dog
>>>>>> can tell the person who is at 65, the person should not be too
>>>>>> incapacitated at that point to do the things they need to do to help
>>>>>> themselves raise their blood glucose. This is especially critical 
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> diabetic (usually type 1 diabetic, btw, but not ALWAYS) is asleep.
>>>>>> Diabetics are at serious risk of a phenomenon called "Dead in Bed".
>>>>>> Their
>>>>>> numbers get too low while they sleep and they slip into a coma and 
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> dead or confused and unable to help themselves and can die even if
>>>>>> "awake"
>>>>>> in the morning...no sugar is reaching their brain and so they can't
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> straight to drink juice or swallow glucose tablets or whatever and
>>>>>> that's
>>>>>> it. Very sad and scary. The beauty here is that a human's sleep cycle
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> quite long...multiple hours. A dog's sleep cycle is FAR shorter...I
>>>>>> want
>>>>>> to say about 90 minutes or so. This means that the dog is mostly 
>>>>>> awake
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> can smell the low on their person and wake them up to tell them at
>>>>>> many
>>>>>> different points
>>>>>> throughout the night. The dogs are generally taught to alert to the
>>>>>> lows
>>>>>> and not really the highs because the highs are SO easy to 
>>>>>> smell...even
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> or I can smell it, no problem. The ketones smell really sweet when
>>>>>> someone
>>>>>> is running high, so the diabetic's breath will reek! Dogs often will
>>>>>> start
>>>>>> to alert the highs once they get that their job is to tell their 
>>>>>> human
>>>>>> when they're smelling funny, but dogs who are rewarded too often for
>>>>>> alerting to high often start to only alert to high because it's so
>>>>>> easy
>>>>>> for them to smell. What we really NEED the dog alerting to is the
>>>>>> lows,
>>>>>> though, so can't let the dogs get lazy and stop smelling for the
>>>>>> harder to
>>>>>> catch lows!
>>>>
>>>>>> Long story short - there are very legitimate glucose level alerting
>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>> for diabetics. I have no idea if the St. Bernard was one - that's a
>>>>>> whole
>>>>>> different ball of wax that I won't touch - but at least now everyone
>>>>>> knows
>>>>>> more about the dogs for diabetics.
>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, I should mention since I think my email makes it sound like maybe
>>>>>> these dogs only need to be home use - that is far from the case. The
>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>> will also do things like ride close enough to someone driving and be
>>>>>> able
>>>>>> to alert the person in case their sugar goes out of whack while they
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> driving. (I'm sure everyone can see how this is a useful service!) A
>>>>>> dog
>>>>>> may sit under a programmer's desk at work and alert them that they're
>>>>>> low...big bonus for everyone since when sugar goes low, brain 
>>>>>> function
>>>>>> declines and suddenly you've got a programmer probably making all
>>>>>> kinds of
>>>>>> errors. All sorts of things like that, so the dogs do need public
>>>>>> access
>>>>>> and protection just like guide dogs and other kinds of more commonly
>>>>>> recognized service dogs.
>>>>
>>>>>> Cool to note is that d4d actually gets a number of their dogs from
>>>>>> none
>>>>>> other than the nearby GDB. It's a good career change. Often a dog 
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> won't make the cut as a guide can make a great alert dog. I'm sure 
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> all
>>>>>> know how big the percentage is of guide dog handlers who need guides
>>>>>> because of diabetes complications, so actually getting a well-trained
>>>>>> glucose level alert dog into the hands of a young diabetic is a
>>>>>> wonderful
>>>>>> way to help them keep their numbers MUCH better controlled and
>>>>>> postpone or
>>>>>> even prevent that person from ever needing a Guide due to diabetes
>>>>>> complications. I think this is great as long as it's done well,
>>>>>> ethically,
>>>>>> safely, etc!
>>>>
>>>>>> Dogs rock. It's people I sometimes wonder about. ;) j/k (sort of!)
>>>>
>>>>>> Dailyah Rudek
>>>>>> The ProBoneO Program, Director
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>> From: Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 5, 2012 4:21 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] In question please
>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, there are dogs that can alert to changes in blood sugar levels.
>>>>>>> There is even a program that trains this type of dog. I'm 
>>>>>>> remembering
>>>>>>> it's in the northwest, Washington or Oregon? Of course the dog
>>>>>>> wouldn't
>>>>>>> have had to come from this or any program to be trained to alert to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> guy's medical condition.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> --Dar
>>>>> skype: dmgina23
>>>>>  FB: dmgina
>>>>> www.twitter.com/dmgina
>>>>> every saint has a past
>>>>> every sinner has a future
>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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