[nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions

Cindy Ray cindyray at gmail.com
Mon Sep 3 12:26:30 UTC 2012


Michael, I feel more strongly that what you are saying is true if an individual church takes that approach. If I am going to attend, say, a Roman Catholic or a Baptist Church, and they tell me I cannot bring my dog there, then I have a serious issue with whether I am welcome there. If the entire religion does not allow it and has specific dogma that says this, then though I might not like it, tolerance of that religion requires me to accept it. In that case, though I don't like it, I can't say I feel less welcome because the dog is not invited. I do struggle with those who want to make the changes necessary in their dogma that they might bring their dogs. I once joined the Muslim dog users' list in order to learn more about this effort, but I was asked to depart from it because I wasn't supposed to have been accepted there. I would have loved to stay and hear the conversation.

Cindy Lou

On Sep 2, 2012, at 10:51 PM, Michael Hingson wrote:

> Thanks Debbie.  I should explain that since there is no legal framework on
> which to fight a church's decision each individual must decide whether or
> not to fight a battle with the church.  For my part, whether or not I decide
> to attend church where a guide dog is not welcome I will always remember the
> decision of the church and wonder if today is the day to stand firm.
> 
> If my wife really wanted to attend a particular church and if that
> organization did not permit my guide dog to come with me I might still go to
> be with my wife and worship God.  I have not been confronted with this
> dilemma, but I know others have.  Even if I decided to attend I would make
> sure the public knew of the decision of the church.
> 
> Remember, any organization or block of people who does not find a guide dog
> welcome is really saying that its blind handler is not welcome.  He or she
> who denies my guide dog denies me.  Or, God does not discriminate against
> guide dogs people do. 
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> 
> Michael Hingson
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Debbie Cole
> Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 08:27 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions
> 
> *High 5's Michael
> 
> On 9/2/12, Michael Hingson <info at michaelhingson.com> wrote:
>> On the other hand, I believe a church which does not welcome a blind 
>> person with a guide dog is not being welcoming and is discriminating.  
>> Martin Luther King JR. once said something like the most prejudicial 
>> hour of the week is Sunday at 11AM.  Legal or not a church should 
>> above all entities should welcome all including blind persons with guide
> dogs.
>> 
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> 
>> Michael Hingson
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>> Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 07:53 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions
>> 
>> Actually, the church is not required to allow you to bring your dog 
>> into their temple, so you may well be doing a good thing not to fight it.
>> 
>> Cindy Lou
>> 
>> On Sep 2, 2012, at 9:49 PM, Jenny Keller wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> Again, sorry to get to this thread so late.  but I wanted to say that 
>>> as a
>> member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which has 
>> been in the news a lot for our temples and such.  I am not allowed to 
>> bring him inside the temple.
>>> 
>>> I know, I could probably fight it.  but there are a lot of Mormons 
>>> who are
>> blind and have had, or do have guides, and we all, or most of us, have 
>> decided that the Holiness of the temple trumps our legal right to 
>> bring our dogs inside it.
>>> anyway, Have a great week, and my prayers and thoughts go out to 
>>> anyone on
>> this list directly, or having family affected, by Hurricane Isac.
>>> 
>>> Remember, there could've been guides and their handlers involved, and 
>>> they
>> need our thoughts and prayers.  Not only everyone else too.
>>> 
>>> Jenny
>>> On Aug 31, 2012, at 4:05 PM, Lyn Gwizdak wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Julie and Cindy,
>>>> These things show exactly why the schools tell us not to throw away 
>>>> our
>> canes or us to never use a cane again.  We have two mobility aids and 
>> we have the capability to use each one as needed and it's all good!
>>>> 
>>>> I don't take Landon if it is way too hot for him and I've left him 
>>>> for
>> some other things as well.  Recently, I left him home when I went to 
>> somebody's tiny bungalow home to make buttons and signs for Pride.  
>> There were two small dogs and a TON of people crammed into that house 
>> and tiny patio out back.  I was glad not to have had Landon with me.  
>> He literally would have had NO place to lie down where he wouldn't get
> stepped on!
>> Literally! LOL! I was glad to be able to work on our projects without 
>> worrying about him getting stepped on or fed junk by people who didn't 
>> know the rules.  Landon stayed home and snoozed and kept my sister 
>> company.  I didn't bring him to our CityFest event where I staffed my 
>> Democratic club's table.  It was SOOOOOO hot that day!  I did see some 
>> dogs there but not as many as usual for that event - and even some of
> those dogs wore booties!
>> Landon's comfort was much more important than his entertaining folks 
>> who came to our booth. He does this out of harness.  He deals well 
>> with visiting and then working because he is a certified therapy dog 
>> as well so he enjoys this alot.  I also leave him home alot when I 
>> grocery shop and need to take a cart on the bus.  Much easier with a 
>> cane.
>>>> 
>>>> Each person and dog need to do as they deem the right thing to do in 
>>>> any
>> circumstance and people shouldn't criticise each other for our choices.
>>>> 
>>>> Landon goes to funerals and he comforts people there - family 
>>>> members or
>> my friends - at the appropriate time.  I had him at my Dad's funeral 
>> last week at their church and later at my parents' house where we 
>> gathered afterwards. We will have another memorial in late October 
>> when the rest of our huge family can get there.  Landon will be there as
> well.
>>>> 
>>>> If I ride in private cars or visit private homes where I don't 
>>>> really
>> know the people, I will ask first before bringing Landon - just courtesy.
>> And most of the time, they say a resounding YES because most of the 
>> people I know love dogs and animals.
>>>> 
>>>> Everyone have a nice Labor Day.  Hope those of you in the path of TS
>> Isaac are safe and OK.  these storms can be so devastating!
>>>> 
>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 1:07 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of 
>>>> Questions
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> There are few places I don't take the dog. Sometimes when with my
>> daughter, I don't take him for a ride with us if we go for a drive. I 
>> will not take him to fireworks displays, and I stopped taking him when 
>> I went to the gym. However, before I ever got a dog, my husband at the 
>> time, Chuck Hallenbeck, said to me, "Think of all the places you 
>> wouldn't think you would use the dog and then use it anyway", or words 
>> to that effect. And that is what I've always done. It is interesting 
>> the differences in people's philosophy of where to use/take the dog. 
>> When I went to the Benedictine Retreat Center I went to in spring, if 
>> they had said I couldn't bring him, I would have been more amenable to 
>> that since I now understand that this is within their right.
>>>>> 
>>>>> CL
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Aug 31, 2012, at 1:04 PM, Julie J. wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am going to the state fair this weekend.  the temps are supposed 
>>>>>> to
>> be in the 90's.  We are going to a tractor pull and then a concert.  
>> Monty has been to the state fair before, but he's staying home this 
>> year. It'll be too hot, too loud and too uncomfortable for him to lay 
>> on bleachers for hours and hours.  I'm not exactly sure how I'm going 
>> to remain semi comfortable on those bleachers all afternoon and 
>> evening.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I do not take my guides to funerals.  This has nothing to do with 
>>>>>> the
>> place of the event, the other people or the dog.  It is because I only 
>> attend funerals of people who I was very close to and I'm in no frame 
>> of mind to be working a guide dog.  I typically go sighted guide with 
>> a cane just in case.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I have not taken any of my guides on a vacation.  I consider this 
>>>>>> on a
>> case by case basis.  I recently traveled to Alaska.  Monty stayed home 
>> because we scheduled a lot of day trips that would have not been 
>> appropriate for him and I couldn't figure out what I'd do with him.  
>> We went clam digging which is extremely and I mean extremely wet, cold 
>> and dirty work.
>> We went kayaking.  there was no place in the boat for him. We also 
>> went fishing on a small boat.  It ended up that he could have probably 
>> fit and been comfortable on that boat, but I didn't know that before I
> arrived.
>> Ditto with the bed and breakfast, it turned out that the owner would 
>> have been fine with Monty there, but she was not required to accept 
>> service dogs because she lives on the premises and only rents a very 
>> small number of rooms.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I rarely take my guide into friends homes or cars.  The exception 
>>>>>> is if
>> he is specifically invited or if I am attending some work related 
>> function with a coworker.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Other places I don't take Monty: car races, fireworks displays and
>> llama farms.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I generally run through the following before taking Monty:
>>>>>> 1. Is he legally allowed in this place?  If no is he invited or 
>>>>>> will he
>> be accepted without impoliteness?
>>>>>> 2.  Will his coming along make my life easier, more convenient or
>> improve my options?
>>>>>> 3.  Will he be comfortable in this place?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Of course I don't actually go through those questions verbatim 
>>>>>> each
>> time, but a lot more so in the beginning when I was still getting the 
>> hang of things.  And sometimes my choice to take him isn't based on 
>> the place at all.  I just left him home yesterday when my husband and I
> ran to the bank.
>> Monty had already been on a long walk in the morning and then a 
>> regular day at my office.  It was very hot and he was tired.  I felt 
>> like he needed a break.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I've noticed that my list of places and circumstances has changed 
>>>>>> over
>> the years and with the different personalities of my dogs.  What works 
>> for Monty may be entirely different from my next dog or if Monty was 
>> someone else guide what works for that team combination would likely 
>> also be different.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> JMHO
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>> 
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>> 
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> 
> 
> --
> warmly,
> 
> Debbie Cole
> 
> debbieanne1124 at gmail.com
> 
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