[nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions
Cindy Ray
cindyray at gmail.com
Mon Sep 3 12:26:30 UTC 2012
Michael, I feel more strongly that what you are saying is true if an individual church takes that approach. If I am going to attend, say, a Roman Catholic or a Baptist Church, and they tell me I cannot bring my dog there, then I have a serious issue with whether I am welcome there. If the entire religion does not allow it and has specific dogma that says this, then though I might not like it, tolerance of that religion requires me to accept it. In that case, though I don't like it, I can't say I feel less welcome because the dog is not invited. I do struggle with those who want to make the changes necessary in their dogma that they might bring their dogs. I once joined the Muslim dog users' list in order to learn more about this effort, but I was asked to depart from it because I wasn't supposed to have been accepted there. I would have loved to stay and hear the conversation.
Cindy Lou
On Sep 2, 2012, at 10:51 PM, Michael Hingson wrote:
> Thanks Debbie. I should explain that since there is no legal framework on
> which to fight a church's decision each individual must decide whether or
> not to fight a battle with the church. For my part, whether or not I decide
> to attend church where a guide dog is not welcome I will always remember the
> decision of the church and wonder if today is the day to stand firm.
>
> If my wife really wanted to attend a particular church and if that
> organization did not permit my guide dog to come with me I might still go to
> be with my wife and worship God. I have not been confronted with this
> dilemma, but I know others have. Even if I decided to attend I would make
> sure the public knew of the decision of the church.
>
> Remember, any organization or block of people who does not find a guide dog
> welcome is really saying that its blind handler is not welcome. He or she
> who denies my guide dog denies me. Or, God does not discriminate against
> guide dogs people do.
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> Michael Hingson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Debbie Cole
> Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 08:27 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions
>
> *High 5's Michael
>
> On 9/2/12, Michael Hingson <info at michaelhingson.com> wrote:
>> On the other hand, I believe a church which does not welcome a blind
>> person with a guide dog is not being welcoming and is discriminating.
>> Martin Luther King JR. once said something like the most prejudicial
>> hour of the week is Sunday at 11AM. Legal or not a church should
>> above all entities should welcome all including blind persons with guide
> dogs.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>> Michael Hingson
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>> Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 07:53 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions
>>
>> Actually, the church is not required to allow you to bring your dog
>> into their temple, so you may well be doing a good thing not to fight it.
>>
>> Cindy Lou
>>
>> On Sep 2, 2012, at 9:49 PM, Jenny Keller wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Again, sorry to get to this thread so late. but I wanted to say that
>>> as a
>> member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which has
>> been in the news a lot for our temples and such. I am not allowed to
>> bring him inside the temple.
>>>
>>> I know, I could probably fight it. but there are a lot of Mormons
>>> who are
>> blind and have had, or do have guides, and we all, or most of us, have
>> decided that the Holiness of the temple trumps our legal right to
>> bring our dogs inside it.
>>> anyway, Have a great week, and my prayers and thoughts go out to
>>> anyone on
>> this list directly, or having family affected, by Hurricane Isac.
>>>
>>> Remember, there could've been guides and their handlers involved, and
>>> they
>> need our thoughts and prayers. Not only everyone else too.
>>>
>>> Jenny
>>> On Aug 31, 2012, at 4:05 PM, Lyn Gwizdak wrote:
>>>
>>>> Julie and Cindy,
>>>> These things show exactly why the schools tell us not to throw away
>>>> our
>> canes or us to never use a cane again. We have two mobility aids and
>> we have the capability to use each one as needed and it's all good!
>>>>
>>>> I don't take Landon if it is way too hot for him and I've left him
>>>> for
>> some other things as well. Recently, I left him home when I went to
>> somebody's tiny bungalow home to make buttons and signs for Pride.
>> There were two small dogs and a TON of people crammed into that house
>> and tiny patio out back. I was glad not to have had Landon with me.
>> He literally would have had NO place to lie down where he wouldn't get
> stepped on!
>> Literally! LOL! I was glad to be able to work on our projects without
>> worrying about him getting stepped on or fed junk by people who didn't
>> know the rules. Landon stayed home and snoozed and kept my sister
>> company. I didn't bring him to our CityFest event where I staffed my
>> Democratic club's table. It was SOOOOOO hot that day! I did see some
>> dogs there but not as many as usual for that event - and even some of
> those dogs wore booties!
>> Landon's comfort was much more important than his entertaining folks
>> who came to our booth. He does this out of harness. He deals well
>> with visiting and then working because he is a certified therapy dog
>> as well so he enjoys this alot. I also leave him home alot when I
>> grocery shop and need to take a cart on the bus. Much easier with a
>> cane.
>>>>
>>>> Each person and dog need to do as they deem the right thing to do in
>>>> any
>> circumstance and people shouldn't criticise each other for our choices.
>>>>
>>>> Landon goes to funerals and he comforts people there - family
>>>> members or
>> my friends - at the appropriate time. I had him at my Dad's funeral
>> last week at their church and later at my parents' house where we
>> gathered afterwards. We will have another memorial in late October
>> when the rest of our huge family can get there. Landon will be there as
> well.
>>>>
>>>> If I ride in private cars or visit private homes where I don't
>>>> really
>> know the people, I will ask first before bringing Landon - just courtesy.
>> And most of the time, they say a resounding YES because most of the
>> people I know love dogs and animals.
>>>>
>>>> Everyone have a nice Labor Day. Hope those of you in the path of TS
>> Isaac are safe and OK. these storms can be so devastating!
>>>>
>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 1:07 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of
>>>> Questions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> There are few places I don't take the dog. Sometimes when with my
>> daughter, I don't take him for a ride with us if we go for a drive. I
>> will not take him to fireworks displays, and I stopped taking him when
>> I went to the gym. However, before I ever got a dog, my husband at the
>> time, Chuck Hallenbeck, said to me, "Think of all the places you
>> wouldn't think you would use the dog and then use it anyway", or words
>> to that effect. And that is what I've always done. It is interesting
>> the differences in people's philosophy of where to use/take the dog.
>> When I went to the Benedictine Retreat Center I went to in spring, if
>> they had said I couldn't bring him, I would have been more amenable to
>> that since I now understand that this is within their right.
>>>>>
>>>>> CL
>>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 31, 2012, at 1:04 PM, Julie J. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am going to the state fair this weekend. the temps are supposed
>>>>>> to
>> be in the 90's. We are going to a tractor pull and then a concert.
>> Monty has been to the state fair before, but he's staying home this
>> year. It'll be too hot, too loud and too uncomfortable for him to lay
>> on bleachers for hours and hours. I'm not exactly sure how I'm going
>> to remain semi comfortable on those bleachers all afternoon and
>> evening.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do not take my guides to funerals. This has nothing to do with
>>>>>> the
>> place of the event, the other people or the dog. It is because I only
>> attend funerals of people who I was very close to and I'm in no frame
>> of mind to be working a guide dog. I typically go sighted guide with
>> a cane just in case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have not taken any of my guides on a vacation. I consider this
>>>>>> on a
>> case by case basis. I recently traveled to Alaska. Monty stayed home
>> because we scheduled a lot of day trips that would have not been
>> appropriate for him and I couldn't figure out what I'd do with him.
>> We went clam digging which is extremely and I mean extremely wet, cold
>> and dirty work.
>> We went kayaking. there was no place in the boat for him. We also
>> went fishing on a small boat. It ended up that he could have probably
>> fit and been comfortable on that boat, but I didn't know that before I
> arrived.
>> Ditto with the bed and breakfast, it turned out that the owner would
>> have been fine with Monty there, but she was not required to accept
>> service dogs because she lives on the premises and only rents a very
>> small number of rooms.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I rarely take my guide into friends homes or cars. The exception
>>>>>> is if
>> he is specifically invited or if I am attending some work related
>> function with a coworker.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Other places I don't take Monty: car races, fireworks displays and
>> llama farms.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I generally run through the following before taking Monty:
>>>>>> 1. Is he legally allowed in this place? If no is he invited or
>>>>>> will he
>> be accepted without impoliteness?
>>>>>> 2. Will his coming along make my life easier, more convenient or
>> improve my options?
>>>>>> 3. Will he be comfortable in this place?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course I don't actually go through those questions verbatim
>>>>>> each
>> time, but a lot more so in the beginning when I was still getting the
>> hang of things. And sometimes my choice to take him isn't based on
>> the place at all. I just left him home yesterday when my husband and I
> ran to the bank.
>> Monty had already been on a long walk in the morning and then a
>> regular day at my office. It was very hot and he was tired. I felt
>> like he needed a break.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've noticed that my list of places and circumstances has changed
>>>>>> over
>> the years and with the different personalities of my dogs. What works
>> for Monty may be entirely different from my next dog or if Monty was
>> someone else guide what works for that team combination would likely
>> also be different.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> JMHO
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> for
>> nagdu:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmai
>>>>>> l.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>> nagdu:
>>>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/linda.gwizdak%40cox
>> .net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for
>> nagdu:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jlperdue3%40gmail
>>>> .com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.c
>>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/info%40michaelhings
>> on.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/debbieanne1124%40gm
>> ail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> warmly,
>
> Debbie Cole
>
> debbieanne1124 at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/info%40michaelhingson.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com
More information about the NAGDU
mailing list