[nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions

Larry D. Keeler lkeeler at comcast.net
Mon Sep 3 15:13:06 UTC 2012 

Does she sing with you as well?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Debbie Eifler" <edebgiggles at aol.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions


> Cagney is next to me in the choir, where everyone can see her.  Our 
> service is even on YouTube and she can be laying between me and the organ 
> .  When we stand she sits and when we
> are sitting she lays,
> people love her there.  Debbie Eifler
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 3, 2012, at 12:03 AM, "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com> 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jenny,
>>
>> I understand.  Although I am not a member of the LDS church we have 
>> housed
>> missionaries in our home when no other house was available for one reason 
>> or
>> another.  I have attended services in Mormon steak houses.
>>
>> However, I still stand by my earlier comments.  It should be your choice
>> whether or not to bring your guide.  No one should request it.  If you
>> choose to bring your dog you should be able to do so.  Your expertise 
>> should
>> be the deciding factor.  If you are asked not to bring your dog then 
>> there
>> is an issue as far as I am concerned.
>>
>> I recognize you have made your choice and that is perfectly fine. 
>> However,
>> you did indicate that you were requested not to bring your guide into the
>> temple and this is not the way it should be.  Ultimately there is a gap 
>> here
>> no matter what the reason or motivation.
>>
>>
>> M.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Jenny Keller
>> Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 09:12 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions
>>
>> I have to let all know, that the churches themselves of the Latter Day
>> Saints have no problems with my taking my dog or when I had a dog, into 
>> the
>> church itself.
>>
>> the Temple, however is a totally different thing altogether.  I don't 
>> feel,
>> anymore, as though my dog was discriminated against once I have been 
>> inside
>> the temple.  There is so much that goes on there that the dog can be in 
>> the
>> way.
>>
>> I know, it's not something that people who have never been inside a 
>> Mormon
>> Temple would understand.  But that's the way it is.  I know a couple of
>> other Mormons who understand this too, and don't feel as though the 
>> church
>> discriminates against us.
>>
>> I want to say again, that inside the church, where everyone is welcome, 
>> so
>> is any guide dog.  It's only the Temple, where sacred things happen, that 
>> we
>> are asked not to bring our dogs.
>>
>> The church has been quite accepting of me, my former dog, my future dog, 
>> and
>> my husband, who is also blind, but uses a cane.
>>
>> It is one of the only faiths I know that has 99.5 of their material in
>> accessible format.  so if they ask that we not bring our dog into the
>> Temple.  It's not something I'm thrilled about sometimes, because I don't
>> like to leave my dog at home when he or she wants to work, but it is a
>> request that I honor.
>>
>> Jenny
>> On Sep 2, 2012, at 10:51 PM, Michael Hingson wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Debbie.  I should explain that since there is no legal
>>> framework on which to fight a church's decision each individual must
>>> decide whether or not to fight a battle with the church.  For my part,
>>> whether or not I decide to attend church where a guide dog is not
>>> welcome I will always remember the decision of the church and wonder if
>> today is the day to stand firm.
>>>
>>> If my wife really wanted to attend a particular church and if that
>>> organization did not permit my guide dog to come with me I might still
>>> go to be with my wife and worship God.  I have not been confronted
>>> with this dilemma, but I know others have.  Even if I decided to
>>> attend I would make sure the public knew of the decision of the church.
>>>
>>> Remember, any organization or block of people who does not find a
>>> guide dog welcome is really saying that its blind handler is not
>>> welcome.  He or she who denies my guide dog denies me.  Or, God does
>>> not discriminate against guide dogs people do.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Hingson
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Debbie Cole
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 08:27 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions
>>>
>>> *High 5's Michael
>>>
>>> On 9/2/12, Michael Hingson <info at michaelhingson.com> wrote:
>>>> On the other hand, I believe a church which does not welcome a blind
>>>> person with a guide dog is not being welcoming and is discriminating.
>>>> Martin Luther King JR. once said something like the most prejudicial
>>>> hour of the week is Sunday at 11AM.  Legal or not a church should
>>>> above all entities should welcome all including blind persons with
>>>> guide
>>> dogs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Michael Hingson
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 07:53 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions
>>>>
>>>> Actually, the church is not required to allow you to bring your dog
>>>> into their temple, so you may well be doing a good thing not to fight 
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> Cindy Lou
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 2, 2012, at 9:49 PM, Jenny Keller wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, sorry to get to this thread so late.  but I wanted to say
>>>>> that as a
>>>> member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which has
>>>> been in the news a lot for our temples and such.  I am not allowed to
>>>> bring him inside the temple.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know, I could probably fight it.  but there are a lot of Mormons
>>>>> who are
>>>> blind and have had, or do have guides, and we all, or most of us,
>>>> have decided that the Holiness of the temple trumps our legal right
>>>> to bring our dogs inside it.
>>>>> anyway, Have a great week, and my prayers and thoughts go out to
>>>>> anyone on
>>>> this list directly, or having family affected, by Hurricane Isac.
>>>>>
>>>>> Remember, there could've been guides and their handlers involved,
>>>>> and they
>>>> need our thoughts and prayers.  Not only everyone else too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jenny
>>>>> On Aug 31, 2012, at 4:05 PM, Lyn Gwizdak wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Julie and Cindy,
>>>>>> These things show exactly why the schools tell us not to throw away
>>>>>> our
>>>> canes or us to never use a cane again.  We have two mobility aids and
>>>> we have the capability to use each one as needed and it's all good!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't take Landon if it is way too hot for him and I've left him
>>>>>> for
>>>> some other things as well.  Recently, I left him home when I went to
>>>> somebody's tiny bungalow home to make buttons and signs for Pride.
>>>> There were two small dogs and a TON of people crammed into that house
>>>> and tiny patio out back.  I was glad not to have had Landon with me.
>>>> He literally would have had NO place to lie down where he wouldn't
>>>> get
>>> stepped on!
>>>> Literally! LOL! I was glad to be able to work on our projects without
>>>> worrying about him getting stepped on or fed junk by people who
>>>> didn't know the rules.  Landon stayed home and snoozed and kept my
>>>> sister company.  I didn't bring him to our CityFest event where I
>>>> staffed my Democratic club's table.  It was SOOOOOO hot that day!  I
>>>> did see some dogs there but not as many as usual for that event - and
>>>> even some of
>>> those dogs wore booties!
>>>> Landon's comfort was much more important than his entertaining folks
>>>> who came to our booth. He does this out of harness.  He deals well
>>>> with visiting and then working because he is a certified therapy dog
>>>> as well so he enjoys this alot.  I also leave him home alot when I
>>>> grocery shop and need to take a cart on the bus.  Much easier with a
>>>> cane.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Each person and dog need to do as they deem the right thing to do
>>>>>> in any
>>>> circumstance and people shouldn't criticise each other for our choices.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Landon goes to funerals and he comforts people there - family
>>>>>> members or
>>>> my friends - at the appropriate time.  I had him at my Dad's funeral
>>>> last week at their church and later at my parents' house where we
>>>> gathered afterwards. We will have another memorial in late October
>>>> when the rest of our huge family can get there.  Landon will be there
>>>> as
>>> well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I ride in private cars or visit private homes where I don't
>>>>>> really
>>>> know the people, I will ask first before bringing Landon - just 
>>>> courtesy.
>>>> And most of the time, they say a resounding YES because most of the
>>>> people I know love dogs and animals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Everyone have a nice Labor Day.  Hope those of you in the path of
>>>>>> TS
>>>> Isaac are safe and OK.  these storms can be so devastating!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 1:07 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of
>>>>>> Questions
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are few places I don't take the dog. Sometimes when with my
>>>> daughter, I don't take him for a ride with us if we go for a drive. I
>>>> will not take him to fireworks displays, and I stopped taking him
>>>> when I went to the gym. However, before I ever got a dog, my husband
>>>> at the time, Chuck Hallenbeck, said to me, "Think of all the places
>>>> you wouldn't think you would use the dog and then use it anyway", or
>>>> words to that effect. And that is what I've always done. It is
>>>> interesting the differences in people's philosophy of where to use/take
>> the dog.
>>>> When I went to the Benedictine Retreat Center I went to in spring, if
>>>> they had said I couldn't bring him, I would have been more amenable
>>>> to that since I now understand that this is within their right.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CL
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Aug 31, 2012, at 1:04 PM, Julie J. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am going to the state fair this weekend.  the temps are
>>>>>>>> supposed to
>>>> be in the 90's.  We are going to a tractor pull and then a concert.
>>>> Monty has been to the state fair before, but he's staying home this
>>>> year. It'll be too hot, too loud and too uncomfortable for him to lay
>>>> on bleachers for hours and hours.  I'm not exactly sure how I'm going
>>>> to remain semi comfortable on those bleachers all afternoon and
>>>> evening.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I do not take my guides to funerals.  This has nothing to do with
>>>>>>>> the
>>>> place of the event, the other people or the dog.  It is because I
>>>> only attend funerals of people who I was very close to and I'm in no
>>>> frame of mind to be working a guide dog.  I typically go sighted
>>>> guide with a cane just in case.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have not taken any of my guides on a vacation.  I consider this
>>>>>>>> on a
>>>> case by case basis.  I recently traveled to Alaska.  Monty stayed
>>>> home because we scheduled a lot of day trips that would have not been
>>>> appropriate for him and I couldn't figure out what I'd do with him.
>>>> We went clam digging which is extremely and I mean extremely wet,
>>>> cold and dirty work.
>>>> We went kayaking.  there was no place in the boat for him. We also
>>>> went fishing on a small boat.  It ended up that he could have
>>>> probably fit and been comfortable on that boat, but I didn't know
>>>> that before I
>>> arrived.
>>>> Ditto with the bed and breakfast, it turned out that the owner would
>>>> have been fine with Monty there, but she was not required to accept
>>>> service dogs because she lives on the premises and only rents a very
>>>> small number of rooms.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I rarely take my guide into friends homes or cars.  The exception
>>>>>>>> is if
>>>> he is specifically invited or if I am attending some work related
>>>> function with a coworker.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Other places I don't take Monty: car races, fireworks displays
>>>>>>>> and
>>>> llama farms.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I generally run through the following before taking Monty:
>>>>>>>> 1. Is he legally allowed in this place?  If no is he invited or
>>>>>>>> will he
>>>> be accepted without impoliteness?
>>>>>>>> 2.  Will his coming along make my life easier, more convenient or
>>>> improve my options?
>>>>>>>> 3.  Will he be comfortable in this place?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course I don't actually go through those questions verbatim
>>>>>>>> each
>>>> time, but a lot more so in the beginning when I was still getting the
>>>> hang of things.  And sometimes my choice to take him isn't based on
>>>> the place at all.  I just left him home yesterday when my husband and
>>>> I
>>> ran to the bank.
>>>> Monty had already been on a long walk in the morning and then a
>>>> regular day at my office.  It was very hot and he was tired.  I felt
>>>> like he needed a break.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've noticed that my list of places and circumstances has changed
>>>>>>>> over
>>>> the years and with the different personalities of my dogs.  What
>>>> works for Monty may be entirely different from my next dog or if
>>>> Monty was someone else guide what works for that team combination
>>>> would likely also be different.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> JMHO
>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>> om
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> warmly,
>>>
>>> Debbie Cole
>>>
>>> debbieanne1124 at gmail.com
>>>
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