[nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions

Lyn Gwizdak linda.gwizdak at cox.net
Mon Sep 3 17:51:11 UTC 2012


It seems to me that the Mormon Temples restrict even what PEOPLE can go in 
there but they have smaller churches where everyone is welcome to go to for 
worship.

Many years ago, when a big Mormon Temple was built in San Diego, one of our 
blind center members, who was Mormon, arranged a tour of the new Temple 
before it was consecrated - they offered toours for the general public then. 
We were allowed to bring the guide dogs there but the people had to wear 
little plastic booties.  I remember the white things there - walls, carpets, 
etc and the fake plants - not real ones.  I could see them not wanting dogs 
on that white carpet.  I remember the real neat murals on the walls in the 
sanctuary and the neat one around the baptismal pool - looked like the 
Mormons do immersion baptisms.  It was all nice in there.

I was surprised to learn that churches are exempt from ADA in regards to our 
dogs.  When I was on our Lutheran church's council, we were subject to ADA 
in regards to remodeling our buildings for access.  The buildings were built 
in the 1930s with a remodel in the 1950s and it would have taken alot of 
work and money to remodel to ADA standards when we tackled the issue in 
2007.  We had to abide by ADA if we remodeled so why are the churches exempt 
from ADA in regards to assistance dog access?

Jenny, I don't understand how anyplace can be "too holy" to allow a creature 
of God's making - your guide dog being in your Temple.  Just curious about 
that and that is my own feeling.  I thought only the Mormon higher ups in 
the religion could go in there and not the regular Mormon worshippers who 
have smaller regular churches to go to.  I didn't think you'd be able to go 
in the Temple anyway.

I respect your decision to not bring your dog in your own church just like I 
respect folks who choose not to bring their dog to someplace.  But, if it is 
a rule there, that's too bad.  I think God wouldn't care if his creations go 
in there and some pastors of some churches just don't like dogs and 
discriminate - they don't care for the blind people for that matter - 
against God's children and this needs to be fought against just like a 
workplace or store where people go.  I thouoght churches were public places 
but not anymoore because of problems and churches must be locked up and not 
open to the public like they were when I was a kid.

Everyone, have a nice holiday and stay safe.

Lyn and Landon
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 5:26 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions


> Michael, I feel more strongly that what you are saying is true if an 
> individual church takes that approach. If I am going to attend, say, a 
> Roman Catholic or a Baptist Church, and they tell me I cannot bring my dog 
> there, then I have a serious issue with whether I am welcome there. If the 
> entire religion does not allow it and has specific dogma that says this, 
> then though I might not like it, tolerance of that religion requires me to 
> accept it. In that case, though I don't like it, I can't say I feel less 
> welcome because the dog is not invited. I do struggle with those who want 
> to make the changes necessary in their dogma that they might bring their 
> dogs. I once joined the Muslim dog users' list in order to learn more 
> about this effort, but I was asked to depart from it because I wasn't 
> supposed to have been accepted there. I would have loved to stay and hear 
> the conversation.
>
> Cindy Lou
>
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 10:51 PM, Michael Hingson wrote:
>
>> Thanks Debbie.  I should explain that since there is no legal framework 
>> on
>> which to fight a church's decision each individual must decide whether or
>> not to fight a battle with the church.  For my part, whether or not I 
>> decide
>> to attend church where a guide dog is not welcome I will always remember 
>> the
>> decision of the church and wonder if today is the day to stand firm.
>>
>> If my wife really wanted to attend a particular church and if that
>> organization did not permit my guide dog to come with me I might still go 
>> to
>> be with my wife and worship God.  I have not been confronted with this
>> dilemma, but I know others have.  Even if I decided to attend I would 
>> make
>> sure the public knew of the decision of the church.
>>
>> Remember, any organization or block of people who does not find a guide 
>> dog
>> welcome is really saying that its blind handler is not welcome.  He or 
>> she
>> who denies my guide dog denies me.  Or, God does not discriminate against
>> guide dogs people do.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>> Michael Hingson
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Debbie Cole
>> Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 08:27 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions
>>
>> *High 5's Michael
>>
>> On 9/2/12, Michael Hingson <info at michaelhingson.com> wrote:
>>> On the other hand, I believe a church which does not welcome a blind
>>> person with a guide dog is not being welcoming and is discriminating.
>>> Martin Luther King JR. once said something like the most prejudicial
>>> hour of the week is Sunday at 11AM.  Legal or not a church should
>>> above all entities should welcome all including blind persons with guide
>> dogs.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Hingson
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 07:53 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions
>>>
>>> Actually, the church is not required to allow you to bring your dog
>>> into their temple, so you may well be doing a good thing not to fight 
>>> it.
>>>
>>> Cindy Lou
>>>
>>> On Sep 2, 2012, at 9:49 PM, Jenny Keller wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> Again, sorry to get to this thread so late.  but I wanted to say that
>>>> as a
>>> member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which has
>>> been in the news a lot for our temples and such.  I am not allowed to
>>> bring him inside the temple.
>>>>
>>>> I know, I could probably fight it.  but there are a lot of Mormons
>>>> who are
>>> blind and have had, or do have guides, and we all, or most of us, have
>>> decided that the Holiness of the temple trumps our legal right to
>>> bring our dogs inside it.
>>>> anyway, Have a great week, and my prayers and thoughts go out to
>>>> anyone on
>>> this list directly, or having family affected, by Hurricane Isac.
>>>>
>>>> Remember, there could've been guides and their handlers involved, and
>>>> they
>>> need our thoughts and prayers.  Not only everyone else too.
>>>>
>>>> Jenny
>>>> On Aug 31, 2012, at 4:05 PM, Lyn Gwizdak wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Julie and Cindy,
>>>>> These things show exactly why the schools tell us not to throw away
>>>>> our
>>> canes or us to never use a cane again.  We have two mobility aids and
>>> we have the capability to use each one as needed and it's all good!
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't take Landon if it is way too hot for him and I've left him
>>>>> for
>>> some other things as well.  Recently, I left him home when I went to
>>> somebody's tiny bungalow home to make buttons and signs for Pride.
>>> There were two small dogs and a TON of people crammed into that house
>>> and tiny patio out back.  I was glad not to have had Landon with me.
>>> He literally would have had NO place to lie down where he wouldn't get
>> stepped on!
>>> Literally! LOL! I was glad to be able to work on our projects without
>>> worrying about him getting stepped on or fed junk by people who didn't
>>> know the rules.  Landon stayed home and snoozed and kept my sister
>>> company.  I didn't bring him to our CityFest event where I staffed my
>>> Democratic club's table.  It was SOOOOOO hot that day!  I did see some
>>> dogs there but not as many as usual for that event - and even some of
>> those dogs wore booties!
>>> Landon's comfort was much more important than his entertaining folks
>>> who came to our booth. He does this out of harness.  He deals well
>>> with visiting and then working because he is a certified therapy dog
>>> as well so he enjoys this alot.  I also leave him home alot when I
>>> grocery shop and need to take a cart on the bus.  Much easier with a
>>> cane.
>>>>>
>>>>> Each person and dog need to do as they deem the right thing to do in
>>>>> any
>>> circumstance and people shouldn't criticise each other for our choices.
>>>>>
>>>>> Landon goes to funerals and he comforts people there - family
>>>>> members or
>>> my friends - at the appropriate time.  I had him at my Dad's funeral
>>> last week at their church and later at my parents' house where we
>>> gathered afterwards. We will have another memorial in late October
>>> when the rest of our huge family can get there.  Landon will be there as
>> well.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I ride in private cars or visit private homes where I don't
>>>>> really
>>> know the people, I will ask first before bringing Landon - just 
>>> courtesy.
>>> And most of the time, they say a resounding YES because most of the
>>> people I know love dogs and animals.
>>>>>
>>>>> Everyone have a nice Labor Day.  Hope those of you in the path of TS
>>> Isaac are safe and OK.  these storms can be so devastating!
>>>>>
>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 1:07 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of
>>>>> Questions
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> There are few places I don't take the dog. Sometimes when with my
>>> daughter, I don't take him for a ride with us if we go for a drive. I
>>> will not take him to fireworks displays, and I stopped taking him when
>>> I went to the gym. However, before I ever got a dog, my husband at the
>>> time, Chuck Hallenbeck, said to me, "Think of all the places you
>>> wouldn't think you would use the dog and then use it anyway", or words
>>> to that effect. And that is what I've always done. It is interesting
>>> the differences in people's philosophy of where to use/take the dog.
>>> When I went to the Benedictine Retreat Center I went to in spring, if
>>> they had said I couldn't bring him, I would have been more amenable to
>>> that since I now understand that this is within their right.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CL
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 31, 2012, at 1:04 PM, Julie J. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am going to the state fair this weekend.  the temps are supposed
>>>>>>> to
>>> be in the 90's.  We are going to a tractor pull and then a concert.
>>> Monty has been to the state fair before, but he's staying home this
>>> year. It'll be too hot, too loud and too uncomfortable for him to lay
>>> on bleachers for hours and hours.  I'm not exactly sure how I'm going
>>> to remain semi comfortable on those bleachers all afternoon and
>>> evening.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do not take my guides to funerals.  This has nothing to do with
>>>>>>> the
>>> place of the event, the other people or the dog.  It is because I only
>>> attend funerals of people who I was very close to and I'm in no frame
>>> of mind to be working a guide dog.  I typically go sighted guide with
>>> a cane just in case.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have not taken any of my guides on a vacation.  I consider this
>>>>>>> on a
>>> case by case basis.  I recently traveled to Alaska.  Monty stayed home
>>> because we scheduled a lot of day trips that would have not been
>>> appropriate for him and I couldn't figure out what I'd do with him.
>>> We went clam digging which is extremely and I mean extremely wet, cold
>>> and dirty work.
>>> We went kayaking.  there was no place in the boat for him. We also
>>> went fishing on a small boat.  It ended up that he could have probably
>>> fit and been comfortable on that boat, but I didn't know that before I
>> arrived.
>>> Ditto with the bed and breakfast, it turned out that the owner would
>>> have been fine with Monty there, but she was not required to accept
>>> service dogs because she lives on the premises and only rents a very
>>> small number of rooms.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I rarely take my guide into friends homes or cars.  The exception
>>>>>>> is if
>>> he is specifically invited or if I am attending some work related
>>> function with a coworker.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Other places I don't take Monty: car races, fireworks displays and
>>> llama farms.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I generally run through the following before taking Monty:
>>>>>>> 1. Is he legally allowed in this place?  If no is he invited or
>>>>>>> will he
>>> be accepted without impoliteness?
>>>>>>> 2.  Will his coming along make my life easier, more convenient or
>>> improve my options?
>>>>>>> 3.  Will he be comfortable in this place?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course I don't actually go through those questions verbatim
>>>>>>> each
>>> time, but a lot more so in the beginning when I was still getting the
>>> hang of things.  And sometimes my choice to take him isn't based on
>>> the place at all.  I just left him home yesterday when my husband and I
>> ran to the bank.
>>> Monty had already been on a long walk in the morning and then a
>>> regular day at my office.  It was very hot and he was tired.  I felt
>>> like he needed a break.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've noticed that my list of places and circumstances has changed
>>>>>>> over
>>> the years and with the different personalities of my dogs.  What works
>>> for Monty may be entirely different from my next dog or if Monty was
>>> someone else guide what works for that team combination would likely
>>> also be different.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> JMHO
>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> warmly,
>>
>> Debbie Cole
>>
>> debbieanne1124 at gmail.com
>>
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