[nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions

[Lyn Gwizdak]

Many of the Muslims in my neighborhood are from Africa and they are 
terrified of dogs.  Where they are from, dogs are running loose, are feral, 
and many carry rabies.  they don't have pet dogs and don't know about pets 
here not having rabies and certainly haven't a clue about our service dogs 
that they see us with on the streets or on the bus.  As they live here, some 
are learning and don't act as scared as they once did.

As far as germs, they generally don't want physical contact with dogs or 
their saliva - the saliva is considered "unclean".  this may stem from the 
fact that dog saliva has the Rabies virus if the dog carries it.  There are 
several guide dog users in the area and these folks are getting used to 
seeing us around.

Lyn and Landon
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Larry D. Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions


> also, many practicers of Islam are naturally afraid of dogs or percieve 
> that dogs carry germs.  I asked somewone about taking guide dogs to masque 
> and they tell me folks might be very uncomfortible but she thinks it can 
> be done.  She is still checking.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 12:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions
>
>
>> Cindy,
>>
>> Even within the Muslim religion there is debate about guide dogs since 
>> such
>> animals are considered to be helping "the sick".  In that case it is not
>> necessarily the dog, but again the perception of blindness.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Cindy Ray
>> Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 05:26 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions
>>
>> Michael, I feel more strongly that what you are saying is true if an
>> individual church takes that approach. If I am going to attend, say, a 
>> Roman
>> Catholic or a Baptist Church, and they tell me I cannot bring my dog 
>> there,
>> then I have a serious issue with whether I am welcome there. If the 
>> entire
>> religion does not allow it and has specific dogma that says this, then
>> though I might not like it, tolerance of that religion requires me to 
>> accept
>> it. In that case, though I don't like it, I can't say I feel less welcome
>> because the dog is not invited. I do struggle with those who want to make
>> the changes necessary in their dogma that they might bring their dogs. I
>> once joined the Muslim dog users' list in order to learn more about this
>> effort, but I was asked to depart from it because I wasn't supposed to 
>> have
>> been accepted there. I would have loved to stay and hear the 
>> conversation.
>>
>> Cindy Lou
>>
>> On Sep 2, 2012, at 10:51 PM, Michael Hingson wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Debbie.  I should explain that since there is no legal
>>> framework on which to fight a church's decision each individual must
>>> decide whether or not to fight a battle with the church.  For my part,
>>> whether or not I decide to attend church where a guide dog is not
>>> welcome I will always remember the decision of the church and wonder if
>> today is the day to stand firm.
>>>
>>> If my wife really wanted to attend a particular church and if that
>>> organization did not permit my guide dog to come with me I might still
>>> go to be with my wife and worship God.  I have not been confronted
>>> with this dilemma, but I know others have.  Even if I decided to
>>> attend I would make sure the public knew of the decision of the church.
>>>
>>> Remember, any organization or block of people who does not find a
>>> guide dog welcome is really saying that its blind handler is not
>>> welcome.  He or she who denies my guide dog denies me.  Or, God does
>>> not discriminate against guide dogs people do.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Hingson
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Debbie Cole
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 08:27 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions
>>>
>>> *High 5's Michael
>>>
>>> On 9/2/12, Michael Hingson <info at michaelhingson.com> wrote:
>>>> On the other hand, I believe a church which does not welcome a blind
>>>> person with a guide dog is not being welcoming and is discriminating.
>>>> Martin Luther King JR. once said something like the most prejudicial
>>>> hour of the week is Sunday at 11AM.  Legal or not a church should
>>>> above all entities should welcome all including blind persons with
>>>> guide
>>> dogs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Michael Hingson
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 07:53 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions
>>>>
>>>> Actually, the church is not required to allow you to bring your dog
>>>> into their temple, so you may well be doing a good thing not to fight 
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> Cindy Lou
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 2, 2012, at 9:49 PM, Jenny Keller wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, sorry to get to this thread so late.  but I wanted to say
>>>>> that as a
>>>> member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which has
>>>> been in the news a lot for our temples and such.  I am not allowed to
>>>> bring him inside the temple.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know, I could probably fight it.  but there are a lot of Mormons
>>>>> who are
>>>> blind and have had, or do have guides, and we all, or most of us,
>>>> have decided that the Holiness of the temple trumps our legal right
>>>> to bring our dogs inside it.
>>>>> anyway, Have a great week, and my prayers and thoughts go out to
>>>>> anyone on
>>>> this list directly, or having family affected, by Hurricane Isac.
>>>>>
>>>>> Remember, there could've been guides and their handlers involved,
>>>>> and they
>>>> need our thoughts and prayers.  Not only everyone else too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jenny
>>>>> On Aug 31, 2012, at 4:05 PM, Lyn Gwizdak wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Julie and Cindy,
>>>>>> These things show exactly why the schools tell us not to throw away
>>>>>> our
>>>> canes or us to never use a cane again.  We have two mobility aids and
>>>> we have the capability to use each one as needed and it's all good!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't take Landon if it is way too hot for him and I've left him
>>>>>> for
>>>> some other things as well.  Recently, I left him home when I went to
>>>> somebody's tiny bungalow home to make buttons and signs for Pride.
>>>> There were two small dogs and a TON of people crammed into that house
>>>> and tiny patio out back.  I was glad not to have had Landon with me.
>>>> He literally would have had NO place to lie down where he wouldn't
>>>> get
>>> stepped on!
>>>> Literally! LOL! I was glad to be able to work on our projects without
>>>> worrying about him getting stepped on or fed junk by people who
>>>> didn't know the rules.  Landon stayed home and snoozed and kept my
>>>> sister company.  I didn't bring him to our CityFest event where I
>>>> staffed my Democratic club's table.  It was SOOOOOO hot that day!  I
>>>> did see some dogs there but not as many as usual for that event - and
>>>> even some of
>>> those dogs wore booties!
>>>> Landon's comfort was much more important than his entertaining folks
>>>> who came to our booth. He does this out of harness.  He deals well
>>>> with visiting and then working because he is a certified therapy dog
>>>> as well so he enjoys this alot.  I also leave him home alot when I
>>>> grocery shop and need to take a cart on the bus.  Much easier with a
>>>> cane.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Each person and dog need to do as they deem the right thing to do
>>>>>> in any
>>>> circumstance and people shouldn't criticise each other for our choices.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Landon goes to funerals and he comforts people there - family
>>>>>> members or
>>>> my friends - at the appropriate time.  I had him at my Dad's funeral
>>>> last week at their church and later at my parents' house where we
>>>> gathered afterwards. We will have another memorial in late October
>>>> when the rest of our huge family can get there.  Landon will be there
>>>> as
>>> well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I ride in private cars or visit private homes where I don't
>>>>>> really
>>>> know the people, I will ask first before bringing Landon - just 
>>>> courtesy.
>>>> And most of the time, they say a resounding YES because most of the
>>>> people I know love dogs and animals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Everyone have a nice Labor Day.  Hope those of you in the path of
>>>>>> TS
>>>> Isaac are safe and OK.  these storms can be so devastating!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 1:07 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of
>>>>>> Questions
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are few places I don't take the dog. Sometimes when with my
>>>> daughter, I don't take him for a ride with us if we go for a drive. I
>>>> will not take him to fireworks displays, and I stopped taking him
>>>> when I went to the gym. However, before I ever got a dog, my husband
>>>> at the time, Chuck Hallenbeck, said to me, "Think of all the places
>>>> you wouldn't think you would use the dog and then use it anyway", or
>>>> words to that effect. And that is what I've always done. It is
>>>> interesting the differences in people's philosophy of where to use/take
>> the dog.
>>>> When I went to the Benedictine Retreat Center I went to in spring, if
>>>> they had said I couldn't bring him, I would have been more amenable
>>>> to that since I now understand that this is within their right.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CL
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Aug 31, 2012, at 1:04 PM, Julie J. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am going to the state fair this weekend.  the temps are
>>>>>>>> supposed to
>>>> be in the 90's.  We are going to a tractor pull and then a concert.
>>>> Monty has been to the state fair before, but he's staying home this
>>>> year. It'll be too hot, too loud and too uncomfortable for him to lay
>>>> on bleachers for hours and hours.  I'm not exactly sure how I'm going
>>>> to remain semi comfortable on those bleachers all afternoon and
>>>> evening.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I do not take my guides to funerals.  This has nothing to do with
>>>>>>>> the
>>>> place of the event, the other people or the dog.  It is because I
>>>> only attend funerals of people who I was very close to and I'm in no
>>>> frame of mind to be working a guide dog.  I typically go sighted
>>>> guide with a cane just in case.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have not taken any of my guides on a vacation.  I consider this
>>>>>>>> on a
>>>> case by case basis.  I recently traveled to Alaska.  Monty stayed
>>>> home because we scheduled a lot of day trips that would have not been
>>>> appropriate for him and I couldn't figure out what I'd do with him.
>>>> We went clam digging which is extremely and I mean extremely wet,
>>>> cold and dirty work.
>>>> We went kayaking.  there was no place in the boat for him. We also
>>>> went fishing on a small boat.  It ended up that he could have
>>>> probably fit and been comfortable on that boat, but I didn't know
>>>> that before I
>>> arrived.
>>>> Ditto with the bed and breakfast, it turned out that the owner would
>>>> have been fine with Monty there, but she was not required to accept
>>>> service dogs because she lives on the premises and only rents a very
>>>> small number of rooms.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I rarely take my guide into friends homes or cars.  The exception
>>>>>>>> is if
>>>> he is specifically invited or if I am attending some work related
>>>> function with a coworker.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Other places I don't take Monty: car races, fireworks displays
>>>>>>>> and
>>>> llama farms.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I generally run through the following before taking Monty:
>>>>>>>> 1. Is he legally allowed in this place?  If no is he invited or
>>>>>>>> will he
>>>> be accepted without impoliteness?
>>>>>>>> 2.  Will his coming along make my life easier, more convenient or
>>>> improve my options?
>>>>>>>> 3.  Will he be comfortable in this place?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course I don't actually go through those questions verbatim
>>>>>>>> each
>>>> time, but a lot more so in the beginning when I was still getting the
>>>> hang of things.  And sometimes my choice to take him isn't based on
>>>> the place at all.  I just left him home yesterday when my husband and
>>>> I
>>> ran to the bank.
>>>> Monty had already been on a long walk in the morning and then a
>>>> regular day at my office.  It was very hot and he was tired.  I felt
>>>> like he needed a break.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've noticed that my list of places and circumstances has changed
>>>>>>>> over
>>>> the years and with the different personalities of my dogs.  What
>>>> works for Monty may be entirely different from my next dog or if
>>>> Monty was someone else guide what works for that team combination
>>>> would likely also be different.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> JMHO
>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>> om
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>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> warmly,
>>>
>>> Debbie Cole
>>>
>>> debbieanne1124 at gmail.com
>>>
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