[nagdu] newspaper practice at TSE was Re: First dog concerns

Tina Thomas judotina48kg at gmail.com
Fri Sep 7 02:26:48 UTC 2012 

Jenny I honestly believe it was an honest mistake. The trainers at SE would
never intentionally hit a dog in the face for any reason. Chris's message
did say that the dog did bounce back and was able to work through the issue.
Also, I am familiar with SE's approach to traffic training and furthermore,
I didn't as or need or want an apology. You have a right to your own views
and opinions. 
Tina          

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jenny Keller
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 7:11 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] newspaper practice at TSE was Re: First dog concerns

I agree, O&M skills are essential in order to get and properly work a dog.
but in this case, the dog was bopped with a newspaper, and accidentally hit
in the eye.  

As you see in the previous message, it has caused problems.  I agree that
people leash correct their dogs for their own faults, but seriously, there
is no reason to strike a dog so close to their eyes.  The top of their
heads, I can see, but so close to the eyes.  

I will not apologize for my view on that practice.  

Jenny
On Sep 6, 2012, at 9:47 AM, Tina Thomas wrote:

> Hello Jenny-
> First of all a leash correction would be inappropriate and ineffective 
> in teaching a dog traffic training. Seeing Eye does use a soft foam 
> bopper with a foam ball attached to it. Now if the dog gets to close 
> to the moving object, the dog gets a bop on the nose. A leash 
> correction would not work in this situation for many reasons, one 
> being that it would be too little to late and both handler and dog would
be seriously injured and or killed.
> Also, I have seen  a common trend amongst dog handlers these days 
> where the dog is held responsible for every infraction that takes place
with the team.
> Now I don't know if this is due to poor O&M/cane skills or lack of 
> confidence  on the part of the handlers, but I find this to be very 
> disturbing. Situations such as crossing a street and dealing with on 
> coming traffic is a everyday occurrence no matter if using a cane and 
> or dog. Think about it like this if one is crossing the street with a 
> cane and a car is coming at you and you have the walk signal,  what  
> would be your natural reaction. Well the same concept applies with
crossing the street with a dog.
> Now there are certain intersections that have turn lanes as well as 
> right on red is legal, so we as handlers have to know what kinds of 
> intersections we will encounter as well as use our hearing as well as 
> good judgment when crossing streets and not just depend on the dog to 
> bail us out if we make a bad call. The dog is not human nor are they
backups for poor travel skills.
> We are a team and sometimes we due make bad calls and the dog can 
> assist us either by  backing up in the street and or not coming off 
> the curb when given the forward command. This is why I believe that 
> O&M/cane  travel skills are invaluable.
> As for Seeing Eye's method on traffic training it is appropriate and 
> very affective and top notch and it's going to stay that way.  Also, 
> SE would never send someone home with a dog who exhibited traffic 
> fears no matter how big or small. That dog would be career changed.
> Tina and K
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Marsha Drenth
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 4:12 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] newspaper practice at TSE was Re: First dog concerns
> 
> Jenny,
> 
> Its okay for you to disagree with a school on their practices. It 
> would be interesting to hear what the newspaper thing really is. It 
> must be a new practice, as when I was there that never happened. I am 
> not saying its right or wrong, but perhaps if we know more of how its 
> done and how then maybe it won't sound so bad.
> 
> 
> 
> Marsha drenthSent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 5, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Jenny Keller <jlperdue3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> OK,
>> 
>> Please don't think I'm trying to flame a school of anything.  but I 
>> DO NOT
> believe in hitting a dog with anything.  that's what a leash 
> correction is for!
>> 
>> In my opinion, and remember that I said that.  the practice of 
>> hitting
> your dog with anything, even a newspaper, is barbaric.  also, in this 
> situation, someone can be just a hair off, and do exactly what had 
> been done to this dog and cause serious psychological and confidence 
> issues.  Which seems to be the case here.
>> 
>> Just my opinion,
>> 
>> Jenny
>> On Sep 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, Cindy Ray wrote:
>> 
>>> That is a part of their training that they always receive. That's 
>>> how
> they learn about traffic checks.
>>> 
>>> Cindy Lou
>>> 
>>> On Sep 4, 2012, at 3:30 PM, Criminal Justice Major wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi, all,
>>>> One question I have to ask is that when Chris H was in training and 
>>>> the
> dog got too close in trafic, why was a rolled up newspaper used?
>>>> *Am curious*
>>>> I figure something like that would definitely not only traumatize 
>>>> the
> dog, but wouldn't it lower confidence?
>>>> Bibi
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