[nagdu] newspaper practice at TSE was Re: First dog concerns

Laurel and Stockard laurel.stockard at gmail.com
Fri Sep 7 13:15:53 UTC 2012 

Doug,
I have been following this thread, and honest to God, I have no idea how your last message relates to the topic at hand. I think that the discussion about how best to teach dogs to handle traffic well is a good one. And while people may have different opinions about this issue, we come from different schools and backgrounds.And how are we ever going to learn anything, or figure out better ways to handle things, regarding any issue really, if we cannot discuss these things with each other? I love how GDB does traffic checks etc, and I do not myself agree with the whole newspaper thing, but it is always important to share our opinions on things like this.
Laurel and Stockard

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 7, 2012, at 7:40 AM, "Doug Parisian" <eggmann at shaw.ca> wrote:

> Please stop this inane stupidity; I certainly don't want such a whiny 
> attitude to effect my safety because some jellyfish spirit, on the basis of 
> error in aim, decides to back burner a tried and proven true method.  The 
> rationale  for  was extremely well explained by a couple of more 
> clear-thinking listers and I won't waste bytes in reiteration.
> 
> Just think, that Berger you ate today used to have hopes and dreams, joys 
> and sorrows, and likely met a screamingly painful and frightening death.  Oh 
> yes, vegetables feel pain too!
> 
> Doug: that miserable carrot killer!
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jenny Keller" <jlperdue3 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 10:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] newspaper practice at TSE was Re: First dog concerns
> 
> 
> :I know it was an accident.  I don't think TSE would do anything like that 
> intentionally.  But when you bop an animal with anything in the nose.  the 
> likelihood of an accidental hit in the eye is there.
> :
> : JMO,
> :
> : Jenny
> : On Sep 6, 2012, at 9:26 PM, Tina Thomas wrote:
> :
> : > Jenny I honestly believe it was an honest mistake. The trainers at SE 
> would
> : > never intentionally hit a dog in the face for any reason. Chris's 
> message
> : > did say that the dog did bounce back and was able to work through the 
> issue.
> : > Also, I am familiar with SE's approach to traffic training and 
> furthermore,
> : > I didn't as or need or want an apology. You have a right to your own 
> views
> : > and opinions.
> : > Tina
> : >
> : > -----Original Message-----
> : > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf
> : > Of Jenny Keller
> : > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 7:11 PM
> : > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> : > Subject: Re: [nagdu] newspaper practice at TSE was Re: First dog 
> concerns
> : >
> : > I agree, O&M skills are essential in order to get and properly work a 
> dog.
> : > but in this case, the dog was bopped with a newspaper, and accidentally 
> hit
> : > in the eye.
> : >
> : > As you see in the previous message, it has caused problems.  I agree 
> that
> : > people leash correct their dogs for their own faults, but seriously, 
> there
> : > is no reason to strike a dog so close to their eyes.  The top of their
> : > heads, I can see, but so close to the eyes.
> : >
> : > I will not apologize for my view on that practice.
> : >
> : > Jenny
> : > On Sep 6, 2012, at 9:47 AM, Tina Thomas wrote:
> : >
> : >> Hello Jenny-
> : >> First of all a leash correction would be inappropriate and ineffective
> : >> in teaching a dog traffic training. Seeing Eye does use a soft foam
> : >> bopper with a foam ball attached to it. Now if the dog gets to close
> : >> to the moving object, the dog gets a bop on the nose. A leash
> : >> correction would not work in this situation for many reasons, one
> : >> being that it would be too little to late and both handler and dog 
> would
> : > be seriously injured and or killed.
> : >> Also, I have seen  a common trend amongst dog handlers these days
> : >> where the dog is held responsible for every infraction that takes place
> : > with the team.
> : >> Now I don't know if this is due to poor O&M/cane skills or lack of
> : >> confidence  on the part of the handlers, but I find this to be very
> : >> disturbing. Situations such as crossing a street and dealing with on
> : >> coming traffic is a everyday occurrence no matter if using a cane and
> : >> or dog. Think about it like this if one is crossing the street with a
> : >> cane and a car is coming at you and you have the walk signal,  what
> : >> would be your natural reaction. Well the same concept applies with
> : > crossing the street with a dog.
> : >> Now there are certain intersections that have turn lanes as well as
> : >> right on red is legal, so we as handlers have to know what kinds of
> : >> intersections we will encounter as well as use our hearing as well as
> : >> good judgment when crossing streets and not just depend on the dog to
> : >> bail us out if we make a bad call. The dog is not human nor are they
> : > backups for poor travel skills.
> : >> We are a team and sometimes we due make bad calls and the dog can
> : >> assist us either by  backing up in the street and or not coming off
> : >> the curb when given the forward command. This is why I believe that
> : >> O&M/cane  travel skills are invaluable.
> : >> As for Seeing Eye's method on traffic training it is appropriate and
> : >> very affective and top notch and it's going to stay that way.  Also,
> : >> SE would never send someone home with a dog who exhibited traffic
> : >> fears no matter how big or small. That dog would be career changed.
> : >> Tina and K
> : >>
> : >>
> : >> -----Original Message-----
> : >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> : >> Behalf Of Marsha Drenth
> : >> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 4:12 AM
> : >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> : >> Subject: [nagdu] newspaper practice at TSE was Re: First dog concerns
> : >>
> : >> Jenny,
> : >>
> : >> Its okay for you to disagree with a school on their practices. It
> : >> would be interesting to hear what the newspaper thing really is. It
> : >> must be a new practice, as when I was there that never happened. I am
> : >> not saying its right or wrong, but perhaps if we know more of how its
> : >> done and how then maybe it won't sound so bad.
> : >>
> : >>
> : >>
> : >> Marsha drenthSent from my iPhone
> : >>
> : >> On Sep 5, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Jenny Keller <jlperdue3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> : >>
> : >>> OK,
> : >>>
> : >>> Please don't think I'm trying to flame a school of anything.  but I
> : >>> DO NOT
> : >> believe in hitting a dog with anything.  that's what a leash
> : >> correction is for!
> : >>>
> : >>> In my opinion, and remember that I said that.  the practice of
> : >>> hitting
> : >> your dog with anything, even a newspaper, is barbaric.  also, in this
> : >> situation, someone can be just a hair off, and do exactly what had
> : >> been done to this dog and cause serious psychological and confidence
> : >> issues.  Which seems to be the case here.
> : >>>
> : >>> Just my opinion,
> : >>>
> : >>> Jenny
> : >>> On Sep 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, Cindy Ray wrote:
> : >>>
> : >>>> That is a part of their training that they always receive. That's
> : >>>> how
> : >> they learn about traffic checks.
> : >>>>
> : >>>> Cindy Lou
> : >>>>
> : >>>> On Sep 4, 2012, at 3:30 PM, Criminal Justice Major wrote:
> : >>>>
> : >>>>> Hi, all,
> : >>>>> One question I have to ask is that when Chris H was in training and
> : >>>>> the
> : >> dog got too close in trafic, why was a rolled up newspaper used?
> : >>>>> *Am curious*
> : >>>>> I figure something like that would definitely not only traumatize
> : >>>>> the
> : >> dog, but wouldn't it lower confidence?
> : >>>>> Bibi
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