[nagdu] newspaper practice at TSE was Re: First dog concerns

Doug Parisian eggmann at shaw.ca
Fri Sep 7 12:40:05 UTC 2012 

Please stop this inane stupidity; I certainly don't want such a whiny 
attitude to effect my safety because some jellyfish spirit, on the basis of 
error in aim, decides to back burner a tried and proven true method.  The 
rationale  for  was extremely well explained by a couple of more 
clear-thinking listers and I won't waste bytes in reiteration.

Just think, that Berger you ate today used to have hopes and dreams, joys 
and sorrows, and likely met a screamingly painful and frightening death.  Oh 
yes, vegetables feel pain too!

Doug: that miserable carrot killer!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jenny Keller" <jlperdue3 at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] newspaper practice at TSE was Re: First dog concerns


:I know it was an accident.  I don't think TSE would do anything like that 
intentionally.  But when you bop an animal with anything in the nose.  the 
likelihood of an accidental hit in the eye is there.
:
: JMO,
:
: Jenny
: On Sep 6, 2012, at 9:26 PM, Tina Thomas wrote:
:
: > Jenny I honestly believe it was an honest mistake. The trainers at SE 
would
: > never intentionally hit a dog in the face for any reason. Chris's 
message
: > did say that the dog did bounce back and was able to work through the 
issue.
: > Also, I am familiar with SE's approach to traffic training and 
furthermore,
: > I didn't as or need or want an apology. You have a right to your own 
views
: > and opinions.
: > Tina
: >
: > -----Original Message-----
: > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
Behalf
: > Of Jenny Keller
: > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 7:11 PM
: > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
: > Subject: Re: [nagdu] newspaper practice at TSE was Re: First dog 
concerns
: >
: > I agree, O&M skills are essential in order to get and properly work a 
dog.
: > but in this case, the dog was bopped with a newspaper, and accidentally 
hit
: > in the eye.
: >
: > As you see in the previous message, it has caused problems.  I agree 
that
: > people leash correct their dogs for their own faults, but seriously, 
there
: > is no reason to strike a dog so close to their eyes.  The top of their
: > heads, I can see, but so close to the eyes.
: >
: > I will not apologize for my view on that practice.
: >
: > Jenny
: > On Sep 6, 2012, at 9:47 AM, Tina Thomas wrote:
: >
: >> Hello Jenny-
: >> First of all a leash correction would be inappropriate and ineffective
: >> in teaching a dog traffic training. Seeing Eye does use a soft foam
: >> bopper with a foam ball attached to it. Now if the dog gets to close
: >> to the moving object, the dog gets a bop on the nose. A leash
: >> correction would not work in this situation for many reasons, one
: >> being that it would be too little to late and both handler and dog 
would
: > be seriously injured and or killed.
: >> Also, I have seen  a common trend amongst dog handlers these days
: >> where the dog is held responsible for every infraction that takes place
: > with the team.
: >> Now I don't know if this is due to poor O&M/cane skills or lack of
: >> confidence  on the part of the handlers, but I find this to be very
: >> disturbing. Situations such as crossing a street and dealing with on
: >> coming traffic is a everyday occurrence no matter if using a cane and
: >> or dog. Think about it like this if one is crossing the street with a
: >> cane and a car is coming at you and you have the walk signal,  what
: >> would be your natural reaction. Well the same concept applies with
: > crossing the street with a dog.
: >> Now there are certain intersections that have turn lanes as well as
: >> right on red is legal, so we as handlers have to know what kinds of
: >> intersections we will encounter as well as use our hearing as well as
: >> good judgment when crossing streets and not just depend on the dog to
: >> bail us out if we make a bad call. The dog is not human nor are they
: > backups for poor travel skills.
: >> We are a team and sometimes we due make bad calls and the dog can
: >> assist us either by  backing up in the street and or not coming off
: >> the curb when given the forward command. This is why I believe that
: >> O&M/cane  travel skills are invaluable.
: >> As for Seeing Eye's method on traffic training it is appropriate and
: >> very affective and top notch and it's going to stay that way.  Also,
: >> SE would never send someone home with a dog who exhibited traffic
: >> fears no matter how big or small. That dog would be career changed.
: >> Tina and K
: >>
: >>
: >> -----Original Message-----
: >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
: >> Behalf Of Marsha Drenth
: >> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 4:12 AM
: >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
: >> Subject: [nagdu] newspaper practice at TSE was Re: First dog concerns
: >>
: >> Jenny,
: >>
: >> Its okay for you to disagree with a school on their practices. It
: >> would be interesting to hear what the newspaper thing really is. It
: >> must be a new practice, as when I was there that never happened. I am
: >> not saying its right or wrong, but perhaps if we know more of how its
: >> done and how then maybe it won't sound so bad.
: >>
: >>
: >>
: >> Marsha drenthSent from my iPhone
: >>
: >> On Sep 5, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Jenny Keller <jlperdue3 at gmail.com> wrote:
: >>
: >>> OK,
: >>>
: >>> Please don't think I'm trying to flame a school of anything.  but I
: >>> DO NOT
: >> believe in hitting a dog with anything.  that's what a leash
: >> correction is for!
: >>>
: >>> In my opinion, and remember that I said that.  the practice of
: >>> hitting
: >> your dog with anything, even a newspaper, is barbaric.  also, in this
: >> situation, someone can be just a hair off, and do exactly what had
: >> been done to this dog and cause serious psychological and confidence
: >> issues.  Which seems to be the case here.
: >>>
: >>> Just my opinion,
: >>>
: >>> Jenny
: >>> On Sep 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, Cindy Ray wrote:
: >>>
: >>>> That is a part of their training that they always receive. That's
: >>>> how
: >> they learn about traffic checks.
: >>>>
: >>>> Cindy Lou
: >>>>
: >>>> On Sep 4, 2012, at 3:30 PM, Criminal Justice Major wrote:
: >>>>
: >>>>> Hi, all,
: >>>>> One question I have to ask is that when Chris H was in training and
: >>>>> the
: >> dog got too close in trafic, why was a rolled up newspaper used?
: >>>>> *Am curious*
: >>>>> I figure something like that would definitely not only traumatize
: >>>>> the
: >> dog, but wouldn't it lower confidence?
: >>>>> Bibi
: >>>>> _______________________________________________
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: >>>>> .com
: >>>>
: >>>>
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