[nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names

Star Gazer pickrellrebecca at gmail.com
Thu Apr 25 19:37:37 UTC 2013


Ken, 
Since Tina didn't much like my post re your dog outliving you, I thought I'd
explain. 
Dogs don't live nearly as long as people. Unless you are in very poor
health, you will probably outlive your dog.  
I saw a very disturbing show on Animal Planet talking about all types of
service dogs.  I found it disturbing because the gist of the show was that
without these dogs, their handlers would live lives that weren't worth
living.  One guy who seemed quite young said he hoped he'd die before his
dog.  It was not a good message to send to the public and not a good way to
live. 
I didn't know what was driving your statement.  It did trip alarm bells for
me that I wanted to call out. 
If you or the list doesn't like that, I'm sorry. 
I think because the population of dog users is so small, people don't know
what the normal scope of emotions is.  The touchy feely side of dog use
doesn't do us any favors. I wasn't sure if you were being funny, having an
especially gooey day full of love and nice feelings, or if you were treading
into some dark places. 
That is all. 


-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 3:08 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names

Hi all,
I don't want you to think I am picking up my marbles and going home. A lot
of us need to pump ourselves up each morning before we go out to face the
world and the less negative issues we have to deal with the better. While I
was in the mainstream work a day life I use to tell my people not to come
into a meeting with a negative if they didn't have a possible solution to go
along with it. At the very least acknowledge the problem and request the
group to come up with a solution. 
I have enough negatives in my life just like most of us. I need solutions,
not more negatives with out a possible solution.
I would hope we could all identify our problems and together look for
solutions.
K&A

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D. Keeler
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 2:13 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names

Well, come out and play once in awhile!  We do learn from everyone!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Ace" <ken at acenovels.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names


> Fading into the woodwork!
> Thank you all for your input, I am just going to sit this chat room out.
> I'll just be in the bleachers and watch the game.
> Thank you all,
> Ken & Ace
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D. Keeler
> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 12:45 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names
>
> I sure want dogs and intend to spend my life going through all of there 
> life
> cycles. If you want a long lived guide, use a horse or person.  I expect 
> to
> get 10 years or so out of Holly. And another few years with her after she
> retires.  Then, of to the next one.  I'm sure they will all have something
> new to teach!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Star Gazer" <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 10:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names
>
>
>> Yes, Ann, this is very well put.
>> I paused for  a bit when I read Ken's post about wanting his dog to be
>> his last. That didn't seem right or healthy to me.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
>> Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 4:45 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names
>>
>> Hi, Ken,
>>
>> Don't sell yourself short.  The sad fact is that the average guide dog
>> works only about 5-6 years (from surveys of guide dog handlers, not
>> the "info"
>> that the guide dog programs put out.)  And the life span of today's
>> human-bred dogs is pitifully short, in any case.  So I hope that no
>> matter how wonderful Ace is as a guide, that you do get the chance to
>> experience one or more successor dogs.  Myself, I found it very
>> wrenching to go through the loss of a succession of such close
>> partners and the emotional Russian roulette of wondering whether the
>> next one I fell in love with would work out as a mobility partner or
>> would do his darndest to shorten my stay on Earth.  So, for the past
>> 10 years I have been partnered with the most engaging and completely
>> competent miniature horse guide, Panda.  She is now
>> 12 years old, and I have the prospect of another decade or more of
>> exemplary guide service from her and more years than that of
>> companionship and shared adventures.  And even though I just turned
>> 65, I'm not ruling out the possibility of successor guides or perhaps
>> even concurrent ones.  My parents are both still going pretty strong
>> as they approach 90, and I had a great grandmother who lived to be
>> 103, so I'm planning for the long term.  I hope the same longevity for
>> you and the same (in doggy terms) for Ace.
>>
>> Best,
>> Ann
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
>> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 5:35 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>
>> Ann;
>> Thank you, I have certainly been blessed with the pairing up of Ace
>> and I and this could be both good and bad. Ace's goal in life is to
>> outlive my sorry ass because I don't think I could adjust to another.
>> The good part of this scenario is that I am already 72 so Ace has a
>> good chance of fulfilling his goal.
>> Ken & Ace
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
>> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 7:46 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>
>> Hi, Ken,
>>
>> One of the marvelous characteristics of my first dog was that other
>> animals seemed to be completely invisible to him.  We could walk
>> within inches of a cat and Bailey wouldn't even flinch.  I lived out
>> in the country, so I specifically asked for a dog which would ignore
>> both live wild animals and roadkill.  Bailey fulfilled this need
>> perfectly.  He would not even break his stride when a band of deer
>> would bound across the road mere feet in front of us.  He would walk
>> neatly around the dead possums or whatever was in our path instead of
>> stopping to sniff, or worse.  When I lived in a house in Newton while
>> attending grad school, the upstairs cat would come down to my
>> apartment and rub herself under Bailey's belly, and all he would do
>> was to come sit on my feet or go behind the breakfast bar to avoid
>> having to deal with the cat, and that was when he was out of harness
>> and free to just be a dog!  He would also ignore my kids' toys and my
>> pet dog's food (as long as it was in the bowl--if pieces of kibble
>> were left about on the floor, then Bailey considered it his duty to
>> clean them up.)  So I guess I was really spoiled by this, my first
>> guide dog, although my pet dogs had always been very well behaved
>> also.  I was definitely not prepared for the nutty behavior I saw in
>> my 2nd and third guide dogs.  I was willing to do whatever the
>> trainers suggested to try to solve the problems, but things just
>> seemed to go from bad to worse.
>>
>> I wish you continued good luck and success with all your present and
>> future guides.  Having confidence in your program of choice is the
>> most important element, I think.  If you can be open with them when
>> you do have questions, and if they are open with you about the
>> characteristics and quirks of each dog they match you with, then I
>> think you can enjoy a long and happy relationship with the training
>> program.
>>
>> Best,
>> Ann
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
>> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 1:03 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>
>> Ann,
>> Thank you for sharing. Apparently I was and am very lucky as I did
>> little research and was just happy that there was a school in my area.
>> SEGDI is only about 30 miles from home and I was on the list for about
>> a year. Ace has only barked three times in almost two years and two
>> dogs bilged out of the program two weeks in for barking during dinner.
>> I was walking between buildings at the VA Hospital just the other day
>> and there were two squirrels just about three feet from the sidewalk.
>> Ace looked over and gave one little whine but never tugged on the lead
>> or broke his stride. So I could be spoiled but the school I attended
>> was very strict about those things.
>> Ken & Ace
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
>> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 3:26 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>
>> Hi, All,
>>
>> I agree completely with what Julie has said.  Furthermore, I can't
>> imagine a list associated with the NFB not permitting its members to
>> speak their honest opinions clearly and respectfully to other
>> consumers who have the right to the most accurate and complete
>> information possible to help them make informed decisions about how
>> they meet the challenges of living as blind people.  If we cannot
>> learn the truth from each other, from whom will we learn it?  If we
>> are afraid to speak the name of a guide dog school in connection to
>> anything less than abject praise, then how can we stand tall as
>> self-respecting blind consumers and first-class citizens?  Are we so
>> afraid of the schools that we cannot even honestly answer questions
>> from our fellow blind persons about our own firsthand experiences with
>> a service which, after all, is designed specifically for us as blind
>> people?  From whom, then, are prospective guide dog users supposed to
>> learn about the differences, strengths, and weaknesses of the various
>> guide dog programs?
>> If there really would be retaliation of some kind against guide dog
>> handlers who spoke honestly about their experiences, then NAGDU really
>> does have an advocacy cause to address here.
>>
>> And NO, I am not saying that school bashing, or anyone else-bashing,
>> is okay.  I'm just saying that stating one's experience with a school
>> or a trainer or a dog from a particular school seems to me not only to
>> be completely appropriate for this list, but indeed very much part of
>> the core mission of this list.
>>
>> So, I will state that I received one very good working chocolate
>> Labrador retriever guide dog from The Seeing Eye in 1991, and he
>> worked until he was almost 11 years old.  This doesn't mean that I had
>> a 100% positive experience with the Seeing Eye; I did disagree with a
>> couple of their policies and procedures.  But they provided me with a
>> fine product at that time.  And if asked by a prospective guide dog
>> user, I would give TSE a positive recommendation with a couple of
>> caviots.  I subsequently (in 2001), received 2 German shepherd dogs
>> from Fidelco, one female and one male.
>> Both
>> of these dogs worked for only a short time, the first for only 3
>> months, the second for almost a year.  The first had a compulsive need
>> to chase anything that moved or appeared to move, animals, light beams
>> or sparkles, and small children, not just distraction or losing focus
>> on her work, but full-out barking, lunging, flipping out losing it.
>> The second dog repeatedly bolted off after cats and other dogs,
>> including after dogs in passing cars, pulling me into traffic, or
>> pulling chairs in which I was sitting over backwards, or pulling the
>> harness and leash out of my hands and bolting off after whatever it
>> was that he saw.  Needless to say, I worked earnestly with the
>> trainers and instructors from the school to try to resolve these
>> issues, but to no avail.  I sent both dogs back to the school for
>> reevaluation, in case they could be considered "bad matches" and could
>> be retrained to work as guides for someone else.  Neither dog was
>> judged to be suitable for a second placement.  Both dogs were released
>> from the guide program, one went to a pet home, the other went to the
>> State Police (I don't know if he made it as a police dog.)  I did not
>> feel that I got the best of support from the program during the
>> year-and-a-half that I was struggling with these two dogs.  Based on
>> this experience, I would not return to this program for another guide
>> dog, and I would not recommend this program to others.  That is my
>> experience, and whether anyone chooses to consider it as one datapoint
>> among the many they might want to consider in their process of
>> deciding how to spend their energy and time as a consumer of guide dog
>> training services is their own decision.  But I certainly don't think
>> that anything I have said could be considered flaming or spreading
>> rumors or untruths.  I think people must try to get to know the other
>> individuals on a list like this and that will help them decide which
>> individuals generally have the same values as their own and therefore
>> whose opinions might prove the most useful to them as guidelines.
>>
>> Anyway, I do hope that NAGDU and its list can continue to be a place
>> where thought and open discussion is encouraged for the benefit of all of
> us.
>>
>> Best,
>> Ann
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
>> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 9:34 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>
>> Eve,
>>
>> I don't agree with your assertion that people should not be using this
>> list to find out about the various guide dog programs.  You suggest
>> that people should go directly to the source, the guide dog program.
>>
>> I view getting a guide dog like any other consumer acquisition.  Let's
>> say I'm in the market for a car.  I'm thinking about a Fordor a
>> Toyota.  I go to the Ford dealership and ask about their cars.  They
>> are going to tell me all the wonderful things about their cars and how
>> they are better than the rest.
>>
>> Then I go to the Toyota dealer and guess what? they tell me all the
>> same things except of course their cars are the best, even better than
> Ford.
>> So
>> how do I figure out what is what and who to believe?  I go to the users.
>>
>> I start asking my friends who use the products I'm interested in about
>> their experiences and satisfaction.  When I'm out and about I notice
>> the products I'm interested in in use.  I make a note of whether or
>> not I like what I'm
>> hearing and observing.   I make my decision based on all the information 
>> I
>> have gathered.
>>
>> I think this list and others like it, are the exact right place to get
>> information about guide dogs from actual users.
>>
>> Over the years I've had a lot of conversations with a lot of guide dog
>> users and program staff.  I've been around a lot of guide dog teams
>> and have seen first hand how they work in a real life situation.  If I
>> had called the schools or read the info on their web sites I would in
>> no way have the same understanding of what they are offering.
>>
>> All that said I think there absolutely needs to be respectful discussion.
>> Perhaps I have a much higher tolerance for negativity than others, but
>> I rarely see bashing or flaming on this list.  I'm totally okay with
>> people respectfully disagreeing with an idea.  I also think it's very
>> important for people to limit their sharing with firsthand accounts.
>> The stuff that begins with my next door neighbor's, hairdressers
>> brother had a guide dog from XYZ and I heard it was horrid are truly
>> inappropriate.  I honestly see no problem with a statement like, "I
>> had a guide dog from XYZ and it was horrid."  That's not hearsay or
>> gossip.  That's a honest firsthand account.
>>
>> Anyway that's my .02 for what it's worth.
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Eve Sanchez
>> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 10:50 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>
>> Yes, the issue here (that I think Marsha is trying to get across) is
>> that people are using names without knowing facts. They think they
>> know, but rumors spread and falsehoods abound and soon what is being
>> said (though well
>> meaning) is a bunch of lies that could be considered bashing. People
>> should not be learning from people on this list which schools are
>> great and which are not, because it is opinions and hear say. People
>> should be able to learn from the source they wish to investigate. What
>> we should be learning here is our own experiences of occurances,
>> how-to's, and what works for us. We can only honestly report about
>> ourselves. I am not saying anyone here would intentionally lie, but
>> people make mistakes or are just plain wrong.
>> When the names are thrown out with false formation or the bashing
>> comments, it does cause blood pressures to rise. As for me, I am
>> getting sick of this entire thread. The rules are laid out. Accept
>> them. If people want to quit the list because they cannot handle the
>> rules then good riddance. Can we get back to talking about our dogs
>> now? Eve
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 7:28 PM, Sheila Leigland
>> <sleigland at bresnan.net>
>> wrote:
>>> Well said, there is a big difference between honest discussion
>>> between handlers and putting others down for the choices that they need
> to make.
>>>
>>> Sheila Leigland
>>>
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