[nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names

Fri Apr 26 01:39:06 UTC 2013

our dogs should enhance our lives not be our whole lives. I love my dog 
but I had a life before my dog.
On 4/25/2013 1:37 PM, Star Gazer wrote:
> Ken,
> Since Tina didn't much like my post re your dog outliving you, I thought I'd
> explain.
> Dogs don't live nearly as long as people. Unless you are in very poor
> health, you will probably outlive your dog.
> I saw a very disturbing show on Animal Planet talking about all types of
> service dogs.  I found it disturbing because the gist of the show was that
> without these dogs, their handlers would live lives that weren't worth
> living.  One guy who seemed quite young said he hoped he'd die before his
> dog.  It was not a good message to send to the public and not a good way to
> live.
> I didn't know what was driving your statement.  It did trip alarm bells for
> me that I wanted to call out.
> If you or the list doesn't like that, I'm sorry.
> I think because the population of dog users is so small, people don't know
> what the normal scope of emotions is.  The touchy feely side of dog use
> doesn't do us any favors. I wasn't sure if you were being funny, having an
> especially gooey day full of love and nice feelings, or if you were treading
> into some dark places.
> That is all.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 3:08 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names
>
> Hi all,
> I don't want you to think I am picking up my marbles and going home. A lot
> of us need to pump ourselves up each morning before we go out to face the
> world and the less negative issues we have to deal with the better. While I
> was in the mainstream work a day life I use to tell my people not to come
> into a meeting with a negative if they didn't have a possible solution to go
> along with it. At the very least acknowledge the problem and request the
> group to come up with a solution.
> I have enough negatives in my life just like most of us. I need solutions,
> not more negatives with out a possible solution.
> I would hope we could all identify our problems and together look for
> solutions.
> K&A
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D. Keeler
> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 2:13 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names
>
> Well, come out and play once in awhile!  We do learn from everyone!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Ace" <ken at acenovels.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names
>
>
>> Fading into the woodwork!
>> Thank you all for your input, I am just going to sit this chat room out.
>> I'll just be in the bleachers and watch the game.
>> Thank you all,
>> Ken & Ace
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D. Keeler
>> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 12:45 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names
>>
>> I sure want dogs and intend to spend my life going through all of there
>> life
>> cycles. If you want a long lived guide, use a horse or person.  I expect
>> to
>> get 10 years or so out of Holly. And another few years with her after she
>> retires.  Then, of to the next one.  I'm sure they will all have something
>> new to teach!
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Star Gazer" <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 10:05 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names
>>
>>
>>> Yes, Ann, this is very well put.
>>> I paused for  a bit when I read Ken's post about wanting his dog to be
>>> his last. That didn't seem right or healthy to me.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 4:45 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names
>>>
>>> Hi, Ken,
>>>
>>> Don't sell yourself short.  The sad fact is that the average guide dog
>>> works only about 5-6 years (from surveys of guide dog handlers, not
>>> the "info"
>>> that the guide dog programs put out.)  And the life span of today's
>>> human-bred dogs is pitifully short, in any case.  So I hope that no
>>> matter how wonderful Ace is as a guide, that you do get the chance to
>>> experience one or more successor dogs.  Myself, I found it very
>>> wrenching to go through the loss of a succession of such close
>>> partners and the emotional Russian roulette of wondering whether the
>>> next one I fell in love with would work out as a mobility partner or
>>> would do his darndest to shorten my stay on Earth.  So, for the past
>>> 10 years I have been partnered with the most engaging and completely
>>> competent miniature horse guide, Panda.  She is now
>>> 12 years old, and I have the prospect of another decade or more of
>>> exemplary guide service from her and more years than that of
>>> companionship and shared adventures.  And even though I just turned
>>> 65, I'm not ruling out the possibility of successor guides or perhaps
>>> even concurrent ones.  My parents are both still going pretty strong
>>> as they approach 90, and I had a great grandmother who lived to be
>>> 103, so I'm planning for the long term.  I hope the same longevity for
>>> you and the same (in doggy terms) for Ace.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Ann
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
>>> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 5:35 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>>
>>> Ann;
>>> Thank you, I have certainly been blessed with the pairing up of Ace
>>> and I and this could be both good and bad. Ace's goal in life is to
>>> outlive my sorry ass because I don't think I could adjust to another.
>>> The good part of this scenario is that I am already 72 so Ace has a
>>> good chance of fulfilling his goal.
>>> Ken & Ace
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
>>> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 7:46 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>>
>>> Hi, Ken,
>>>
>>> One of the marvelous characteristics of my first dog was that other
>>> animals seemed to be completely invisible to him.  We could walk
>>> within inches of a cat and Bailey wouldn't even flinch.  I lived out
>>> in the country, so I specifically asked for a dog which would ignore
>>> both live wild animals and roadkill.  Bailey fulfilled this need
>>> perfectly.  He would not even break his stride when a band of deer
>>> would bound across the road mere feet in front of us.  He would walk
>>> neatly around the dead possums or whatever was in our path instead of
>>> stopping to sniff, or worse.  When I lived in a house in Newton while
>>> attending grad school, the upstairs cat would come down to my
>>> apartment and rub herself under Bailey's belly, and all he would do
>>> was to come sit on my feet or go behind the breakfast bar to avoid
>>> having to deal with the cat, and that was when he was out of harness
>>> and free to just be a dog!  He would also ignore my kids' toys and my
>>> pet dog's food (as long as it was in the bowl--if pieces of kibble
>>> were left about on the floor, then Bailey considered it his duty to
>>> clean them up.)  So I guess I was really spoiled by this, my first
>>> guide dog, although my pet dogs had always been very well behaved
>>> also.  I was definitely not prepared for the nutty behavior I saw in
>>> my 2nd and third guide dogs.  I was willing to do whatever the
>>> trainers suggested to try to solve the problems, but things just
>>> seemed to go from bad to worse.
>>>
>>> I wish you continued good luck and success with all your present and
>>> future guides.  Having confidence in your program of choice is the
>>> most important element, I think.  If you can be open with them when
>>> you do have questions, and if they are open with you about the
>>> characteristics and quirks of each dog they match you with, then I
>>> think you can enjoy a long and happy relationship with the training
>>> program.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Ann
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
>>> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 1:03 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>>
>>> Ann,
>>> Thank you for sharing. Apparently I was and am very lucky as I did
>>> little research and was just happy that there was a school in my area.
>>> SEGDI is only about 30 miles from home and I was on the list for about
>>> a year. Ace has only barked three times in almost two years and two
>>> dogs bilged out of the program two weeks in for barking during dinner.
>>> I was walking between buildings at the VA Hospital just the other day
>>> and there were two squirrels just about three feet from the sidewalk.
>>> Ace looked over and gave one little whine but never tugged on the lead
>>> or broke his stride. So I could be spoiled but the school I attended
>>> was very strict about those things.
>>> Ken & Ace
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
>>> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 3:26 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>>
>>> Hi, All,
>>>
>>> I agree completely with what Julie has said.  Furthermore, I can't
>>> imagine a list associated with the NFB not permitting its members to
>>> speak their honest opinions clearly and respectfully to other
>>> consumers who have the right to the most accurate and complete
>>> information possible to help them make informed decisions about how
>>> they meet the challenges of living as blind people.  If we cannot
>>> learn the truth from each other, from whom will we learn it?  If we
>>> are afraid to speak the name of a guide dog school in connection to
>>> anything less than abject praise, then how can we stand tall as
>>> self-respecting blind consumers and first-class citizens?  Are we so
>>> afraid of the schools that we cannot even honestly answer questions
>>> from our fellow blind persons about our own firsthand experiences with
>>> a service which, after all, is designed specifically for us as blind
>>> people?  From whom, then, are prospective guide dog users supposed to
>>> learn about the differences, strengths, and weaknesses of the various
>>> guide dog programs?
>>> If there really would be retaliation of some kind against guide dog
>>> handlers who spoke honestly about their experiences, then NAGDU really
>>> does have an advocacy cause to address here.
>>>
>>> And NO, I am not saying that school bashing, or anyone else-bashing,
>>> is okay.  I'm just saying that stating one's experience with a school
>>> or a trainer or a dog from a particular school seems to me not only to
>>> be completely appropriate for this list, but indeed very much part of
>>> the core mission of this list.
>>>
>>> So, I will state that I received one very good working chocolate
>>> Labrador retriever guide dog from The Seeing Eye in 1991, and he
>>> worked until he was almost 11 years old.  This doesn't mean that I had
>>> a 100% positive experience with the Seeing Eye; I did disagree with a
>>> couple of their policies and procedures.  But they provided me with a
>>> fine product at that time.  And if asked by a prospective guide dog
>>> user, I would give TSE a positive recommendation with a couple of
>>> caviots.  I subsequently (in 2001), received 2 German shepherd dogs
>>> from Fidelco, one female and one male.
>>> Both
>>> of these dogs worked for only a short time, the first for only 3
>>> months, the second for almost a year.  The first had a compulsive need
>>> to chase anything that moved or appeared to move, animals, light beams
>>> or sparkles, and small children, not just distraction or losing focus
>>> on her work, but full-out barking, lunging, flipping out losing it.
>>> The second dog repeatedly bolted off after cats and other dogs,
>>> including after dogs in passing cars, pulling me into traffic, or
>>> pulling chairs in which I was sitting over backwards, or pulling the
>>> harness and leash out of my hands and bolting off after whatever it
>>> was that he saw.  Needless to say, I worked earnestly with the
>>> trainers and instructors from the school to try to resolve these
>>> issues, but to no avail.  I sent both dogs back to the school for
>>> reevaluation, in case they could be considered "bad matches" and could
>>> be retrained to work as guides for someone else.  Neither dog was
>>> judged to be suitable for a second placement.  Both dogs were released
>>> from the guide program, one went to a pet home, the other went to the
>>> State Police (I don't know if he made it as a police dog.)  I did not
>>> feel that I got the best of support from the program during the
>>> year-and-a-half that I was struggling with these two dogs.  Based on
>>> this experience, I would not return to this program for another guide
>>> dog, and I would not recommend this program to others.  That is my
>>> experience, and whether anyone chooses to consider it as one datapoint
>>> among the many they might want to consider in their process of
>>> deciding how to spend their energy and time as a consumer of guide dog
>>> training services is their own decision.  But I certainly don't think
>>> that anything I have said could be considered flaming or spreading
>>> rumors or untruths.  I think people must try to get to know the other
>>> individuals on a list like this and that will help them decide which
>>> individuals generally have the same values as their own and therefore
>>> whose opinions might prove the most useful to them as guidelines.
>>>
>>> Anyway, I do hope that NAGDU and its list can continue to be a place
>>> where thought and open discussion is encouraged for the benefit of all of
>> us.
>>> Best,
>>> Ann
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 9:34 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>>
>>> Eve,
>>>
>>> I don't agree with your assertion that people should not be using this
>>> list to find out about the various guide dog programs.  You suggest
>>> that people should go directly to the source, the guide dog program.
>>>
>>> I view getting a guide dog like any other consumer acquisition.  Let's
>>> say I'm in the market for a car.  I'm thinking about a Fordor a
>>> Toyota.  I go to the Ford dealership and ask about their cars.  They
>>> are going to tell me all the wonderful things about their cars and how
>>> they are better than the rest.
>>>
>>> Then I go to the Toyota dealer and guess what? they tell me all the
>>> same things except of course their cars are the best, even better than
>> Ford.
>>> So
>>> how do I figure out what is what and who to believe?  I go to the users.
>>>
>>> I start asking my friends who use the products I'm interested in about
>>> their experiences and satisfaction.  When I'm out and about I notice
>>> the products I'm interested in in use.  I make a note of whether or
>>> not I like what I'm
>>> hearing and observing.   I make my decision based on all the information
>>> I
>>> have gathered.
>>>
>>> I think this list and others like it, are the exact right place to get
>>> information about guide dogs from actual users.
>>>
>>> Over the years I've had a lot of conversations with a lot of guide dog
>>> users and program staff.  I've been around a lot of guide dog teams
>>> and have seen first hand how they work in a real life situation.  If I
>>> had called the schools or read the info on their web sites I would in
>>> no way have the same understanding of what they are offering.
>>>
>>> All that said I think there absolutely needs to be respectful discussion.
>>> Perhaps I have a much higher tolerance for negativity than others, but
>>> I rarely see bashing or flaming on this list.  I'm totally okay with
>>> people respectfully disagreeing with an idea.  I also think it's very
>>> important for people to limit their sharing with firsthand accounts.
>>> The stuff that begins with my next door neighbor's, hairdressers
>>> brother had a guide dog from XYZ and I heard it was horrid are truly
>>> inappropriate.  I honestly see no problem with a statement like, "I
>>> had a guide dog from XYZ and it was horrid."  That's not hearsay or
>>> gossip.  That's a honest firsthand account.
>>>
>>> Anyway that's my .02 for what it's worth.
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Eve Sanchez
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 10:50 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>>
>>> Yes, the issue here (that I think Marsha is trying to get across) is
>>> that people are using names without knowing facts. They think they
>>> know, but rumors spread and falsehoods abound and soon what is being
>>> said (though well
>>> meaning) is a bunch of lies that could be considered bashing. People
>>> should not be learning from people on this list which schools are
>>> great and which are not, because it is opinions and hear say. People
>>> should be able to learn from the source they wish to investigate. What
>>> we should be learning here is our own experiences of occurances,
>>> how-to's, and what works for us. We can only honestly report about
>>> ourselves. I am not saying anyone here would intentionally lie, but
>>> people make mistakes or are just plain wrong.
>>> When the names are thrown out with false formation or the bashing
>>> comments, it does cause blood pressures to rise. As for me, I am
>>> getting sick of this entire thread. The rules are laid out. Accept
>>> them. If people want to quit the list because they cannot handle the
>>> rules then good riddance. Can we get back to talking about our dogs
>>> now? Eve
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 7:28 PM, Sheila Leigland
>>> <sleigland at bresnan.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Well said, there is a big difference between honest discussion
>>>> between handlers and putting others down for the choices that they need
>> to make.
>>>> Sheila Leigland
>>>>
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