[nagdu] Suggestions needed!

Sat Aug 17 14:11:46 UTC 2013

Sorry, I guess I sounded sort of vague! I mostly aggree with you actually. 
I'm wondering where the line between service and pet is for the general 
public and not so much for us. I will say that even if you limit certain 
breeds such as Jack Russells, which in general are sort of high strung, you 
cut out some great service dogs!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nicole Torcolini" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 1:59 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!


> Sorry, but to which part of my message were you referring ?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D. Keeler
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 10:40 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
>
> Nicole, one issue I see with that is it might not be the dog! It could be
> that for some reason, the handler may not be able or unwilling to control
> it.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nicole Torcolini" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 1:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
>
>
>> Maybe it could be required on a yearly basis or two years or something?
>> Or,
>> maybe as an alternative, if a business owner thinks that a dog that is
>> being called a service dog is misbehaving too much, then the business
>> owner could report the dog to someone (not sure who) and the dog could
>> then go through the test. This might be better than requiring everyone
>> to do the test.
>> However, having the test on some sort of regular schedule might not be
>> a bad idea, even for organization trained dogs as I know that it is
>> possible for a dog's behavior to get out of hand once he/she is placed
>> with a handler.
>> Sometimes, it is something that the handler is doing and sometimes it
>> is not.
>> Something else that might helpful, but that could also be misused, is
>> some sort of description of what sort of dogs usually do certain
>> services. For example, most guide dogs wear harnesses and need to be
>> large enough to effectively  guide their handlers. Also, maybe there
>> are certain breeds that are more questionable as service dogs than
>> others because they are more high strung or for whatever other reason.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
>> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 10:12 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
>>
>> Well, if there were a way for that to be administered that would
>> actually work, it could be worth consideration, at least. There is the
>> question of how that is paid for and by whom, to begin with. Where
>> would the testing take place? And so on.
>>
>> Also, to what extent would the test guarantee that the dogs continue
>> to be well-behaved and that the handlers continue to maintain that
>> part of the training and so on.
>>
>> Also, how is that certification then used? Do we have to show it
>> everywhere we go? Is that a good idea? Can we produce a proof of this
>> certification that cannot be forged?
>>
>> I've seen some proposed sample tests that seem sensible and
>> reasonable, with fairly specific requirements for the testing.
>> However, there is still the problem of administration and financing on
>> a large scale. So I have never come up with an idea of how to even
>> start there. Maybe someone else has?
>>
>> On 08/16/2013 08:27 PM, Nicole Torcolini wrote:
>>> Would requiring some kind of behavior  test be considered too much
>>> certification?
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D.
>>> Keeler
>>> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 8:13 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
>>>
>>> Tami, I think the formost issue with me is does the dog behave when
>>> asked and does the handler know how to handle the dog! Grooming and
>>> general health is also important because iether the dog may be
>>> bringing its own pets with it or sometimes, Not always, it can
>>> reflect badly on the handler. A handler may be slipping in
>>> maintaining the dogs appearance due to lack of money, time or just
>>> lack of interest. I know that many folks will disaggree with me but I
>>> also think that an ID, tradmark harness or for owner trained teams
>>> some kind of state issued sticker be obtained so that a service dog
>>> can be distinguished from
>> any other dog. A perfect example is my dughters friend.
>>> She has a jack Russell terrier named Trouble! She is a owner trained
>>> hearing dog. The dog is cute and well behaved but, I can forsee many
>>> folks confusing her with a pet. For me, I wonder wher the line
>>> between being private about why you need a dog and what that dog does
>>> for you conflicts with the general publics seeming need to declare
>>> there dogs as service dogs! At some point, there has to be a clear
>>> line instead of the big grey void folks seem to have now. I met a
>>> woman at the train
>> station last year on the way to convention.
>>> William and I were taking the train and I sure hope she wasn't! At
>>> least she wasn't in our car! Anyway, she had a little terier, and the
>>> thing barked, growled and tried to come at our dogs! She had to walk
>>> down the tracks quite away down the tracks and her dog was still
>>> going off! Interestingly, she claimed it was for PTSD. That thing
>>> would have caused it instead of relieving it! I really didn't know
>>> how to handle the situation other than william and I controlling our
>>> dogs while hers cut loose! I mean, who or how do you report a
>>> situation where the dog is clearly in dubious territory iether
>>> because of its or the handlers lack of controlling behavior? At least
>>> with guide dogs you can call a school or talk to a friend and check
>>> to see if the behavior is normal for a service dog! And, I can tell
>>> good owner trainers because they keep there dogs under control. I
>>> wonder what or how penalties can be assessed to folks who are not
>>> being truthful about the service or lack of services that the dog
>>> performs. As long as there is no requirment that can't be faked or we
>>> are not required to have some proof that the dog does the service.
>>> we'll always have folks sneaking nonservice animals
>> under the wire!
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Tami Jarvis" <tami at poodlemutt.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 10:39 PM
>>> Subject: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
>>>
>>>
>>>> Okay, following up on Ken's suggestion, I opened my mouth and now
>>>> have a writing project. I blame Ken! /grin/
>>>>
>>>> Seriously, I do think it might be nice to have some semi-formalized
>>>> collection of those rules of etiquette that most of us here just
>>>> take for granted and that we work so diligently to follow. The
>>> "responsibilities"
>>>> part of our rights and responsibilities. Most of those I have
>>>> learned from a lot of you, whether it's what you learned from your
>>>> schools or the experience of years of real world guide dog use. So
>>>> this seemed a good place to ask again! /smile/
>>>>
>>>> What do we -- with "we" being responsible, considerate service dog
>>>> users -- consider important when we take our dogs into public? What
>>>> is good etiquette in our dogs? What is good etiquette for us humans?
>>>>
>>>> I'm thinking of a couple of categories for the dogs:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Grooming and health
>>>> 2) public behavior
>>>>
>>>> For the humans... I haven't figured out neat categories for that yet.
>>>> I'm thinking of good dog management -- keep the dog out of the
>>>> aisle, stuff like that. Maybe a bit about how to manage lines and so
> forth.
>>>>
>>>> I think I'll include a "what to do when..." As we have seen from the
>>>> convention debriefing... Not everybody knows that it's bad form to
>>>> walk off and leave the smelling mess for someone to step in. Ugh!
>>>> And what about those times your perfectly well trained dog goes
>>>> klepto in the supermarket? I say pay for it; others say, "oh, well."
>>>> I've only had to buy an unintended stuffed animal, if anyone is
> wondering.
>>>> /lol/
>>>>
>>>> I have a few items I might address for interactions with other
>>>> service dog users... Hm...
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, if anyone has suggestions they would like to see included,
>>>> you can write me off list at tami at poodlemutt.com. It might also be
>>>> fun to discuss some of these things on the list. I'm thinking of the
>>>> recent discussion about riding in cabs. We all have different ways
>>>> of doing the same thing and smoothing over the rough spots we
>>>> encounter in a
>>> crowded busy world.
>>>>
>>>> Tami
>>>>
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