[nagdu] identification of service animals

Mon Aug 19 03:17:32 UTC 2013

Ken,

The tattoo concept -- Flip the Lip -- is a new idea, so I like that 
part. As Nicole mentioned, this is well-worn ground for many of us, and 
we have looked at it six ways from Sunday and into next week. As one of 
those owner-trainers, I've galloped over that ground into alternative 
universes in full battle mode in other forums. I just say no to 
certification myself, which tends to be the general agreement here. I 
get burned at stake elsewhere for peeping on the subject, which is no 
fun. You can disagree here, and most people here can disagree without 
being disagreeable. Usually.

Hm... I was thinking that an advantage is that a tattoo wouldn't be as 
easy to forge as an ID card... Then it occurred to me that there might 
be a boom in business for vets with tattoo guns (or whatever they call 
them). If no government in the modern world can come up with forge-proof 
currency, I doubt coming up with forge-proof service dog ID. That would 
even be true of microchips, but the scanner would be expensive. So we 
would have a higher class of service dog frauds who could afford it. Not 
that I'm cynical... /lol/

I like the thinking outside the box and looking for practical 
alternatives. So, cutting through the philosophical concerns and 
everything, I would be interested in your thoughts on the what I always 
come to as the bottom line: How will it be paid for, and who will pay 
for it?

As an owner-trainer, I will have to pay, of course. I will have to pay a 
fee for the test. I will have to pay a fee for the ID itself, you can 
count on it. For a tattoo, that will be a fair whack, I'm thinking. 
Unless testing centers are established in every town in America that has 
a DMV, I am going to have to travel. If there's a testing center in 
every state, then the most likely one will be 300 miles (give or take) 
from where I live. It's a 4-plus hour drive with my husband, each way. 
Allow time to settle the dog and prepare for her the test, then to take 
the test (an hour? two? more?) and... It's an overnight trip. That's a 
couple of tanks of gas, plus the overnight stay. It's not a direct cost 
for the test and ID, but it's a big cost for me!

However, what about the training programs? Will they be exempt from 
testing and certification? If they are not, will they be exempt from 
paying for the test and ID for each and every one of their dogs?

That, to some who have been considering the matter six ways from Sunday 
and into next week for several years now, is what it always comes back 
to. Who will pay for it? Will it really just be owner-trainers? It is 
not a comfortable question, but I think it may be the most important one.

Flip the lip! I like that. I disagree with the idea, but I like it! /grin/

Tami

On 08/18/2013 06:45 PM, Ken Ace wrote:
> I disagree, but I appreciate your view. I am looking for the easiest way of
> verification and the most verifiable. "Flip the Lip" and you know, "Three
> Barks" your out, the kiss principle. But that is just my opinion. To each
> his/her own.
> K&A
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Hingson
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 9:41 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: [nagdu] identification of service animals
>
> Folks,
>
> Please keep in mind that it is we who have the right to take our guides with
> us.  It is not the dog that needs to be proven to be a service animal.
> Instead the two questions allowed under the ADA are designed to determine if
> we are eligible to be accompanied by a service animal.
>
> I am not in favor of any individual being required to carry any extra
> identification.  The ADA questions address the issue.    If any law is to be
> changed or added to the books said law should create strict penalties for
> persons who impersonate a person with a disability.  The burden should
> reside totally on the individual who misrepresents himself or herself
> improperly.
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> Michael Hingson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole Torcolini
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 06:22 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?
>
> Ken,
>
> 	If you go read through the list archives, you will see that this
> subject of some kind of certification has been discussed at length  at least
> a few times, and the general consensus was that such would be problematic
> for several reasons, including, but not limited to, owner trainers. No, I am
> not an owner trainer, but there are several on this list. Please explain how
> exactly a successful program would be tied to an owner trained guide dog?
>
> Nicole
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 5:33 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?
>
> I would ask that you think about this before you respond.
> We all seem to want to solve the problem of identifying service animals
> /guide dogs.
> ID's can be used for any number of animals. It seems apparent that a
> successful program has to be tied to the trained animal.
> That leaves us with three options as I see it: Tattooing, Microchips or ear
> tags like they do with cattle. Of the three I think tattooing on the inner
> lip would seem to be the least objectionable.
> Enter a restaurant / business, expose the tattoo and problem solved. I am
> open for alternatives.
> K&A
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
> Association of Guide Dog Users
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 8:06 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?
>
> Larry,
> 	In your message, you state "I think we have a problem without a
> solution." I believe we do have a few solutions! One solution is to carry
> our brochure with us wherever we go and give them to people. In our
> brochure, it clearly states, "Business may exclude a service dog only if it
> causes a direct threat to the health or safety of others or if it is out of
> control and the handler does not take immediate action to correct the
> behavior." I have attached a PDF of this brochure you can print out or you
> can order them from the Independence Market at (410) 659-9314. Another thing
> that we can all do is to speak to the manager, identify our selves as a
> member of the National Association of Guide dog Users, and let them know
> they have the right to deny access to those whose dogs are out of control
> and give them specific examples of what constitutes "out of control". In
> addition, you can reer them to our hotline for more information. As members
> of the largetst organization of the blind in the United States and of its
> specialty division that represents guide dog users, I believe it is our
> responsibility to educate the public about not only our rights and
> responsibilities but theirs, as well!
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>   rights
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D. Keeler
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 10:18 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?
>
> Aaron, I have seen buisness owners and workers in public service who most
> deffinetely form oppinions about previous encounters with service dogs or
> even fake service dogs. If they have had a well behaved dog come in before
> we get to there place, they often have strong oppinions as to how are dogs
> should be behaving! Not fair but true! Also, the reverse is true. I
> constantly am compared with other dog handlers wherever I go. I have a
> labradoodle and she is often accused of not being a service dog even when
> she is working! Not because she isn't working well but because most folks
> don't believe that a dog who looks like that, can't be a service dog! I feel
> that we have a probblem with out a solution! Mainly because many of the dogs
> I've seen who ar questionable often are not behaving in a way that would be
> tolerated from our dogs. If a dog is being claimed to be performing a
> service and is behaving pretty well. I wound not have much of an issue.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Aaron Cannon" <cannona at fireantproductions.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 8:45 AM
> Subject: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?
>
>
> Hi all.
>
> The recent petition from CCI that was forwarded to this list made some
> assertions:
>
> "When untrained pet dogs are somewhere they shouldn't be, it can create all
> kinds of problems that make business owners think twice before allowing the
> same access to legitimate service dogs and the people who need them.
>
> "This outrageous and potentially dangerous fraud only adds to the
> discrimination often faced by people with disabilities who actually need
> assistance dogs.
>
> "Legitimate service dogs require years of expert training to perform
> specific commands like picking up dropped items and opening doors that
> benefit people with disabilities - many of them U.S. veterans who are
> injured while fighting for this country. These dogs provide calm, reliable
> assistance to their human partners and help them live more independently.
>
> "Now is the time to crack down on service dog fraud and end the online sale
> of fake service dog certification products. Please don't allow the benefits
> of a service dog to be taken away from people who need them."
>
>
> First, has anyone actually seen some evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that
> this is as big a problem as they claim it is?  Has anyone been denied access
> because someone else used a fake ID card?  Honestly curious, as I have no
> information either way.
>
> Second, (and now I am being a bit sarcastic) did anyone's dog receive a few
> years of expert training?  Did it concern you that your dog took over 6
> times longer to train than the average?  What sorts of amazing things can
> your dog do with all that expert training?
>
> Third, does anyone else get a bit suspicious when people or organizations
> start appealing to "think of the children" or "think of the service men and
> women" arguments to make their case?
>
> Fourth, has anyone seen anything that might indicate that the benefits of
> service dogs are in danger of being taken away from "those who need them"?
>
> There are other issues with this petition which I'll address in another
> email, but in short, I'd think carefully before signing.
>
> Aaron
>
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