[nagdu] identification of service animals
Ken Ace
ken at acenovels.com
Mon Aug 19 10:07:48 UTC 2013
Tami,
I think we need something simple, and ketchy like "Plop Plop Fizz Fizz" or
"Where's the beef" or "Flick your Bic" hence my candidate "Flip the Lip".
Then you have to get a starting point like the first of some year, next you
need to start with the Guide Dog Schools and have them support it on all
dogs after that date. The down side would be self trained dogs, and I have
no idea how much a tattoo costs. It should probably be some sort of
registered trademark, that would cover the legal aspect of forgeries.
Existing dogs would be grandfathered in. Just a thought.
K&A
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 11:18 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] identification of service animals
Ken,
The tattoo concept -- Flip the Lip -- is a new idea, so I like that part. As
Nicole mentioned, this is well-worn ground for many of us, and we have
looked at it six ways from Sunday and into next week. As one of those
owner-trainers, I've galloped over that ground into alternative universes in
full battle mode in other forums. I just say no to certification myself,
which tends to be the general agreement here. I get burned at stake
elsewhere for peeping on the subject, which is no fun. You can disagree
here, and most people here can disagree without being disagreeable. Usually.
Hm... I was thinking that an advantage is that a tattoo wouldn't be as easy
to forge as an ID card... Then it occurred to me that there might be a boom
in business for vets with tattoo guns (or whatever they call them). If no
government in the modern world can come up with forge-proof currency, I
doubt coming up with forge-proof service dog ID. That would even be true of
microchips, but the scanner would be expensive. So we would have a higher
class of service dog frauds who could afford it. Not that I'm cynical...
/lol/
I like the thinking outside the box and looking for practical alternatives.
So, cutting through the philosophical concerns and everything, I would be
interested in your thoughts on the what I always come to as the bottom line:
How will it be paid for, and who will pay for it?
As an owner-trainer, I will have to pay, of course. I will have to pay a fee
for the test. I will have to pay a fee for the ID itself, you can count on
it. For a tattoo, that will be a fair whack, I'm thinking.
Unless testing centers are established in every town in America that has a
DMV, I am going to have to travel. If there's a testing center in every
state, then the most likely one will be 300 miles (give or take) from where
I live. It's a 4-plus hour drive with my husband, each way.
Allow time to settle the dog and prepare for her the test, then to take the
test (an hour? two? more?) and... It's an overnight trip. That's a couple of
tanks of gas, plus the overnight stay. It's not a direct cost for the test
and ID, but it's a big cost for me!
However, what about the training programs? Will they be exempt from testing
and certification? If they are not, will they be exempt from paying for the
test and ID for each and every one of their dogs?
That, to some who have been considering the matter six ways from Sunday and
into next week for several years now, is what it always comes back to. Who
will pay for it? Will it really just be owner-trainers? It is not a
comfortable question, but I think it may be the most important one.
Flip the lip! I like that. I disagree with the idea, but I like it! /grin/
Tami
On 08/18/2013 06:45 PM, Ken Ace wrote:
> I disagree, but I appreciate your view. I am looking for the easiest
> way of verification and the most verifiable. "Flip the Lip" and you
> know, "Three Barks" your out, the kiss principle. But that is just my
> opinion. To each his/her own.
> K&A
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> Hingson
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 9:41 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: [nagdu] identification of service animals
>
> Folks,
>
> Please keep in mind that it is we who have the right to take our
> guides with us. It is not the dog that needs to be proven to be a service
animal.
> Instead the two questions allowed under the ADA are designed to
> determine if we are eligible to be accompanied by a service animal.
>
> I am not in favor of any individual being required to carry any extra
> identification. The ADA questions address the issue. If any law is to
be
> changed or added to the books said law should create strict penalties
> for persons who impersonate a person with a disability. The burden
> should reside totally on the individual who misrepresents himself or
> herself improperly.
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> Michael Hingson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole
> Torcolini
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 06:22 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?
>
> Ken,
>
> If you go read through the list archives, you will see that this
> subject of some kind of certification has been discussed at length at
> least a few times, and the general consensus was that such would be
> problematic for several reasons, including, but not limited to, owner
> trainers. No, I am not an owner trainer, but there are several on this
> list. Please explain how exactly a successful program would be tied to an
owner trained guide dog?
>
> Nicole
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 5:33 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?
>
> I would ask that you think about this before you respond.
> We all seem to want to solve the problem of identifying service
> animals /guide dogs.
> ID's can be used for any number of animals. It seems apparent that a
> successful program has to be tied to the trained animal.
> That leaves us with three options as I see it: Tattooing, Microchips
> or ear tags like they do with cattle. Of the three I think tattooing
> on the inner lip would seem to be the least objectionable.
> Enter a restaurant / business, expose the tattoo and problem solved. I
> am open for alternatives.
> K&A
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
> Association of Guide Dog Users
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 8:06 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?
>
> Larry,
> In your message, you state "I think we have a problem without a
> solution." I believe we do have a few solutions! One solution is to
> carry our brochure with us wherever we go and give them to people. In
> our brochure, it clearly states, "Business may exclude a service dog
> only if it causes a direct threat to the health or safety of others or
> if it is out of control and the handler does not take immediate action
> to correct the behavior." I have attached a PDF of this brochure you
> can print out or you can order them from the Independence Market at
> (410) 659-9314. Another thing that we can all do is to speak to the
> manager, identify our selves as a member of the National Association
> of Guide dog Users, and let them know they have the right to deny
> access to those whose dogs are out of control and give them specific
> examples of what constitutes "out of control". In addition, you can
> reer them to our hotline for more information. As members of the
> largetst organization of the blind in the United States and of its
> specialty division that represents guide dog users, I believe it is
> our responsibility to educate the public about not only our rights and
responsibilities but theirs, as well!
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
> rights
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D.
> Keeler
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 10:18 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?
>
> Aaron, I have seen buisness owners and workers in public service who
> most deffinetely form oppinions about previous encounters with service
> dogs or even fake service dogs. If they have had a well behaved dog
> come in before we get to there place, they often have strong oppinions
> as to how are dogs should be behaving! Not fair but true! Also, the
> reverse is true. I constantly am compared with other dog handlers
> wherever I go. I have a labradoodle and she is often accused of not
> being a service dog even when she is working! Not because she isn't
> working well but because most folks don't believe that a dog who looks
> like that, can't be a service dog! I feel that we have a probblem with
> out a solution! Mainly because many of the dogs I've seen who ar
> questionable often are not behaving in a way that would be tolerated
> from our dogs. If a dog is being claimed to be performing a service and is
behaving pretty well. I wound not have much of an issue.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Aaron Cannon" <cannona at fireantproductions.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 8:45 AM
> Subject: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?
>
>
> Hi all.
>
> The recent petition from CCI that was forwarded to this list made some
> assertions:
>
> "When untrained pet dogs are somewhere they shouldn't be, it can
> create all kinds of problems that make business owners think twice
> before allowing the same access to legitimate service dogs and the people
who need them.
>
> "This outrageous and potentially dangerous fraud only adds to the
> discrimination often faced by people with disabilities who actually
> need assistance dogs.
>
> "Legitimate service dogs require years of expert training to perform
> specific commands like picking up dropped items and opening doors that
> benefit people with disabilities - many of them U.S. veterans who are
> injured while fighting for this country. These dogs provide calm,
> reliable assistance to their human partners and help them live more
independently.
>
> "Now is the time to crack down on service dog fraud and end the online
> sale of fake service dog certification products. Please don't allow
> the benefits of a service dog to be taken away from people who need them."
>
>
> First, has anyone actually seen some evidence, anecdotal or otherwise,
> that this is as big a problem as they claim it is? Has anyone been
> denied access because someone else used a fake ID card? Honestly
> curious, as I have no information either way.
>
> Second, (and now I am being a bit sarcastic) did anyone's dog receive
> a few years of expert training? Did it concern you that your dog took
> over 6 times longer to train than the average? What sorts of amazing
> things can your dog do with all that expert training?
>
> Third, does anyone else get a bit suspicious when people or
> organizations start appealing to "think of the children" or "think of
> the service men and women" arguments to make their case?
>
> Fourth, has anyone seen anything that might indicate that the benefits
> of service dogs are in danger of being taken away from "those who need
them"?
>
> There are other issues with this petition which I'll address in
> another email, but in short, I'd think carefully before signing.
>
> Aaron
>
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