[nagdu] identification of service animals

Mon Aug 19 18:27:26 UTC 2013

Ken,

Having to advertise one's disability every time one walks in the door 
would almost certainly have negative ramifications beyond those to the 
individual at the moment... Or so it seems to me. That's a prediction 
that could only be proven if being required to present ID were to 
happen, so I could be wrong... I would rather not find out the hard way 
that my suspicions there are correct!

The truth is that every time we answer "yes" to the question, "Is that a 
service dog?" we are revealing our disability status if not what the 
disability is. When we say the dog is trained to guide, we are telling 
the world we are blind, thus revealing what our disability is. This is 
not a big deal for blind people because folks can figure out we're blind 
without being told. Kinda like wheelchair users, or folks with any other 
type of disability that is just really obvious. So it's hard to get too 
uptight about the whole thing, honestly. I try to remember what we all 
get for going around with an obvious disability and wonder why I would 
want to inflict all of that on someone with a hidden disability by 
making them broadcast it everywhere just to walk into the grocery store. 
I mean, they are if they are using a service dog; and telling or 
demonstrating what the dog is trained to do may be a dead give away for 
anyone who knows anything. But it is pretty subtle, too,  in terms of 
public perception. And official document carries an entirely different 
weight.

Another facet of the Flip the Lip approach occurred to me while I was 
entertaining myself picturing scenarios of how that would actually 
work... My random imagination started out with a stuffy maitre'd, tux, 
white gloves and all, reaching out to raise a dog's lip and look in its 
mouth... Health violation! Saliva on the gloves! Hm... Then it occurred 
to me that before the saliva touched the gloves, this stuffy high-end 
maitre'd had to stick his hand in the face of a large dog that he does 
not know.

It also occurred to me that if service dogs are having that done to them 
numerous times a day, the mere fact that the dog does not take to biting 
people who stick their hands towards its face is more proof than a 
tattoo that that dog is nonaggressive enough to be out in public! Until 
it reaches the snapping point...

My so-called brain cannot let go of the sheer rhyme of the phrase, so I 
expect more adventures into the realm of lip flipping logistics for 
awhile. I am ready to advocate for the Regulation and Restriction of 
Rhyming Rules! /lol/ I am almost bummed the idea would probably not fly 
because it sure is catchy! /grin/

Tami

On 08/19/2013 07:43 AM, Ken Ace wrote:
> I agree and I realize the rub comes with revealing the disability. I still
> think that with a registered trademark with slight variations, unknown to
> the viewer, we could achieve our goal. I also know there several ways to
> skin a cat. :)
> Thanks,
> K&A
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
> Association of Guide Dog Users
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 10:02 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] identification of service animals
>
> Ken,
> 	If we were to only consider guide dog, I would venture to guess
> there are far fewer owner trained guide dogs than program trained dogs;
> however, there seems to be a larger percentage at our meetings than is
> represented by the whole. If we were to consider the service dog user
> population as a whole, though, I believe the percentages would be much
> higher. We need to realize that our advocacy on behalf of service dog users
> also affect those who use dogs for other services than guiding.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 9:25 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] identification of service animals
>
> Marion,
> Apparently I am under the wrong impression of the ratio of Owner-trained
> dogs to school trained. In addition it appears my approach is seriously off
> the track so I will withdraw my comments and settle down on the sideline and
> listen a little closer to the direction we are trying to go.
> Thanks,
> K&A
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
> Association of Guide Dog Users
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 8:57 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] identification of service animals
>
> Ken,
> 	The "easy way out" would depend upon for whom it was "easy"! Those
> of us with program-trained dogs have it "easy", as the programs issue the
> documentation. How easy would it be for owner trainers to secure the
> identification. And does not such identification promulgate the very problem
> we are seeking to resolve?
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 9:45 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] identification of service animals
>
> I disagree, but I appreciate your view. I am looking for the easiest way of
> verification and the most verifiable. "Flip the Lip" and you know, "Three
> Barks" your out, the kiss principle. But that is just my opinion. To each
> his/her own.
> K&A
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Hingson
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 9:41 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: [nagdu] identification of service animals
>
> Folks,
>
> Please keep in mind that it is we who have the right to take our guides with
> us.  It is not the dog that needs to be proven to be a service animal.
> Instead the two questions allowed under the ADA are designed to determine if
> we are eligible to be accompanied by a service animal.
>
> I am not in favor of any individual being required to carry any extra
> identification.  The ADA questions address the issue.    If any law is to be
> changed or added to the books said law should create strict penalties for
> persons who impersonate a person with a disability.  The burden should
> reside totally on the individual who misrepresents himself or herself
> improperly.
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> Michael Hingson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole Torcolini
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 06:22 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?
>
> Ken,
>
> 	If you go read through the list archives, you will see that this
> subject of some kind of certification has been discussed at length  at least
> a few times, and the general consensus was that such would be problematic
> for several reasons, including, but not limited to, owner trainers. No, I am
> not an owner trainer, but there are several on this list. Please explain how
> exactly a successful program would be tied to an owner trained guide dog?
>
> Nicole
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 5:33 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?
>
> I would ask that you think about this before you respond.
> We all seem to want to solve the problem of identifying service animals
> /guide dogs.
> ID's can be used for any number of animals. It seems apparent that a
> successful program has to be tied to the trained animal.
> That leaves us with three options as I see it: Tattooing, Microchips or ear
> tags like they do with cattle. Of the three I think tattooing on the inner
> lip would seem to be the least objectionable.
> Enter a restaurant / business, expose the tattoo and problem solved. I am
> open for alternatives.
> K&A
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
> Association of Guide Dog Users
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 8:06 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?
>
> Larry,
> 	In your message, you state "I think we have a problem without a
> solution." I believe we do have a few solutions! One solution is to carry
> our brochure with us wherever we go and give them to people. In our
> brochure, it clearly states, "Business may exclude a service dog only if it
> causes a direct threat to the health or safety of others or if it is out of
> control and the handler does not take immediate action to correct the
> behavior." I have attached a PDF of this brochure you can print out or you
> can order them from the Independence Market at (410) 659-9314. Another thing
> that we can all do is to speak to the manager, identify our selves as a
> member of the National Association of Guide dog Users, and let them know
> they have the right to deny access to those whose dogs are out of control
> and give them specific examples of what constitutes "out of control". In
> addition, you can reer them to our hotline for more information. As members
> of the largetst organization of the blind in the United States and of its
> specialty division that represents guide dog users, I believe it is our
> responsibility to educate the public about not only our rights and
> responsibilities but theirs, as well!
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>   rights
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D. Keeler
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 10:18 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?
>
> Aaron, I have seen buisness owners and workers in public service who most
> deffinetely form oppinions about previous encounters with service dogs or
> even fake service dogs. If they have had a well behaved dog come in before
> we get to there place, they often have strong oppinions as to how are dogs
> should be behaving! Not fair but true! Also, the reverse is true. I
> constantly am compared with other dog handlers wherever I go. I have a
> labradoodle and she is often accused of not being a service dog even when
> she is working! Not because she isn't working well but because most folks
> don't believe that a dog who looks like that, can't be a service dog! I feel
> that we have a probblem with out a solution! Mainly because many of the dogs
> I've seen who ar questionable often are not behaving in a way that would be
> tolerated from our dogs. If a dog is being claimed to be performing a
> service and is behaving pretty well. I wound not have much of an issue.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Aaron Cannon" <cannona at fireantproductions.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 8:45 AM
> Subject: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?
>
>
> Hi all.
>
> The recent petition from CCI that was forwarded to this list made some
> assertions:
>
> "When untrained pet dogs are somewhere they shouldn't be, it can create all
> kinds of problems that make business owners think twice before allowing the
> same access to legitimate service dogs and the people who need them.
>
> "This outrageous and potentially dangerous fraud only adds to the
> discrimination often faced by people with disabilities who actually need
> assistance dogs.
>
> "Legitimate service dogs require years of expert training to perform
> specific commands like picking up dropped items and opening doors that
> benefit people with disabilities - many of them U.S. veterans who are
> injured while fighting for this country. These dogs provide calm, reliable
> assistance to their human partners and help them live more independently.
>
> "Now is the time to crack down on service dog fraud and end the online sale
> of fake service dog certification products. Please don't allow the benefits
> of a service dog to be taken away from people who need them."
>
>
> First, has anyone actually seen some evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that
> this is as big a problem as they claim it is?  Has anyone been denied access
> because someone else used a fake ID card?  Honestly curious, as I have no
> information either way.
>
> Second, (and now I am being a bit sarcastic) did anyone's dog receive a few
> years of expert training?  Did it concern you that your dog took over 6
> times longer to train than the average?  What sorts of amazing things can
> your dog do with all that expert training?
>
> Third, does anyone else get a bit suspicious when people or organizations
> start appealing to "think of the children" or "think of the service men and
> women" arguments to make their case?
>
> Fourth, has anyone seen anything that might indicate that the benefits of
> service dogs are in danger of being taken away from "those who need them"?
>
> There are other issues with this petition which I'll address in another
> email, but in short, I'd think carefully before signing.
>
> Aaron
>
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