[nagdu] identification of service animals
Sheila Leigland
sleigland at bresnan.net
Mon Aug 19 19:12:39 UTC 2013
hi tami I have a golden that loves attention but more or less on his own
terms. I don't think that Tres would be pleased about a stranger trying
to approach his lips. he tends to move back if approached to quickly
even if my husband approaches to pick up his food bowl. If I stand up he
is on alert to the next move.
On 8/19/2013 12:27 PM, Tami Jarvis wrote:
> Ken,
>
> Having to advertise one's disability every time one walks in the door
> would almost certainly have negative ramifications beyond those to the
> individual at the moment... Or so it seems to me. That's a prediction
> that could only be proven if being required to present ID were to
> happen, so I could be wrong... I would rather not find out the hard
> way that my suspicions there are correct!
>
> The truth is that every time we answer "yes" to the question, "Is that
> a service dog?" we are revealing our disability status if not what the
> disability is. When we say the dog is trained to guide, we are telling
> the world we are blind, thus revealing what our disability is. This is
> not a big deal for blind people because folks can figure out we're
> blind without being told. Kinda like wheelchair users, or folks with
> any other type of disability that is just really obvious. So it's hard
> to get too uptight about the whole thing, honestly. I try to remember
> what we all get for going around with an obvious disability and wonder
> why I would want to inflict all of that on someone with a hidden
> disability by making them broadcast it everywhere just to walk into
> the grocery store. I mean, they are if they are using a service dog;
> and telling or demonstrating what the dog is trained to do may be a
> dead give away for anyone who knows anything. But it is pretty subtle,
> too, in terms of public perception. And official document carries an
> entirely different weight.
>
> Another facet of the Flip the Lip approach occurred to me while I was
> entertaining myself picturing scenarios of how that would actually
> work... My random imagination started out with a stuffy maitre'd, tux,
> white gloves and all, reaching out to raise a dog's lip and look in
> its mouth... Health violation! Saliva on the gloves! Hm... Then it
> occurred to me that before the saliva touched the gloves, this stuffy
> high-end maitre'd had to stick his hand in the face of a large dog
> that he does not know.
>
> It also occurred to me that if service dogs are having that done to
> them numerous times a day, the mere fact that the dog does not take to
> biting people who stick their hands towards its face is more proof
> than a tattoo that that dog is nonaggressive enough to be out in
> public! Until it reaches the snapping point...
>
> My so-called brain cannot let go of the sheer rhyme of the phrase, so
> I expect more adventures into the realm of lip flipping logistics for
> awhile. I am ready to advocate for the Regulation and Restriction of
> Rhyming Rules! /lol/ I am almost bummed the idea would probably not
> fly because it sure is catchy! /grin/
>
> Tami
>
> On 08/19/2013 07:43 AM, Ken Ace wrote:
>> I agree and I realize the rub comes with revealing the disability. I
>> still
>> think that with a registered trademark with slight variations,
>> unknown to
>> the viewer, we could achieve our goal. I also know there several ways to
>> skin a cat. :)
>> Thanks,
>> K&A
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
>> Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 10:02 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] identification of service animals
>>
>> Ken,
>> If we were to only consider guide dog, I would venture to guess
>> there are far fewer owner trained guide dogs than program trained dogs;
>> however, there seems to be a larger percentage at our meetings than is
>> represented by the whole. If we were to consider the service dog user
>> population as a whole, though, I believe the percentages would be much
>> higher. We need to realize that our advocacy on behalf of service dog
>> users
>> also affect those who use dogs for other services than guiding.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 9:25 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] identification of service animals
>>
>> Marion,
>> Apparently I am under the wrong impression of the ratio of Owner-trained
>> dogs to school trained. In addition it appears my approach is
>> seriously off
>> the track so I will withdraw my comments and settle down on the
>> sideline and
>> listen a little closer to the direction we are trying to go.
>> Thanks,
>> K&A
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
>> Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 8:57 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] identification of service animals
>>
>> Ken,
>> The "easy way out" would depend upon for whom it was "easy"! Those
>> of us with program-trained dogs have it "easy", as the programs issue
>> the
>> documentation. How easy would it be for owner trainers to secure the
>> identification. And does not such identification promulgate the very
>> problem
>> we are seeking to resolve?
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
>> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 9:45 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] identification of service animals
>>
>> I disagree, but I appreciate your view. I am looking for the easiest
>> way of
>> verification and the most verifiable. "Flip the Lip" and you know,
>> "Three
>> Barks" your out, the kiss principle. But that is just my opinion. To
>> each
>> his/her own.
>> K&A
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>> Hingson
>> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 9:41 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: [nagdu] identification of service animals
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>> Please keep in mind that it is we who have the right to take our
>> guides with
>> us. It is not the dog that needs to be proven to be a service animal.
>> Instead the two questions allowed under the ADA are designed to
>> determine if
>> we are eligible to be accompanied by a service animal.
>>
>> I am not in favor of any individual being required to carry any extra
>> identification. The ADA questions address the issue. If any law
>> is to be
>> changed or added to the books said law should create strict penalties
>> for
>> persons who impersonate a person with a disability. The burden should
>> reside totally on the individual who misrepresents himself or herself
>> improperly.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>> Michael Hingson
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole
>> Torcolini
>> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 06:22 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?
>>
>> Ken,
>>
>> If you go read through the list archives, you will see that this
>> subject of some kind of certification has been discussed at length
>> at least
>> a few times, and the general consensus was that such would be
>> problematic
>> for several reasons, including, but not limited to, owner trainers.
>> No, I am
>> not an owner trainer, but there are several on this list. Please
>> explain how
>> exactly a successful program would be tied to an owner trained guide
>> dog?
>>
>> Nicole
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
>> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 5:33 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?
>>
>> I would ask that you think about this before you respond.
>> We all seem to want to solve the problem of identifying service animals
>> /guide dogs.
>> ID's can be used for any number of animals. It seems apparent that a
>> successful program has to be tied to the trained animal.
>> That leaves us with three options as I see it: Tattooing, Microchips
>> or ear
>> tags like they do with cattle. Of the three I think tattooing on the
>> inner
>> lip would seem to be the least objectionable.
>> Enter a restaurant / business, expose the tattoo and problem solved.
>> I am
>> open for alternatives.
>> K&A
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
>> Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 8:06 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?
>>
>> Larry,
>> In your message, you state "I think we have a problem without a
>> solution." I believe we do have a few solutions! One solution is to
>> carry
>> our brochure with us wherever we go and give them to people. In our
>> brochure, it clearly states, "Business may exclude a service dog only
>> if it
>> causes a direct threat to the health or safety of others or if it is
>> out of
>> control and the handler does not take immediate action to correct the
>> behavior." I have attached a PDF of this brochure you can print out
>> or you
>> can order them from the Independence Market at (410) 659-9314.
>> Another thing
>> that we can all do is to speak to the manager, identify our selves as a
>> member of the National Association of Guide dog Users, and let them know
>> they have the right to deny access to those whose dogs are out of
>> control
>> and give them specific examples of what constitutes "out of control". In
>> addition, you can reer them to our hotline for more information. As
>> members
>> of the largetst organization of the blind in the United States and of
>> its
>> specialty division that represents guide dog users, I believe it is our
>> responsibility to educate the public about not only our rights and
>> responsibilities but theirs, as well!
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>>
>> rights
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D.
>> Keeler
>> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 10:18 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?
>>
>> Aaron, I have seen buisness owners and workers in public service who
>> most
>> deffinetely form oppinions about previous encounters with service
>> dogs or
>> even fake service dogs. If they have had a well behaved dog come in
>> before
>> we get to there place, they often have strong oppinions as to how are
>> dogs
>> should be behaving! Not fair but true! Also, the reverse is true. I
>> constantly am compared with other dog handlers wherever I go. I have a
>> labradoodle and she is often accused of not being a service dog even
>> when
>> she is working! Not because she isn't working well but because most
>> folks
>> don't believe that a dog who looks like that, can't be a service dog!
>> I feel
>> that we have a probblem with out a solution! Mainly because many of
>> the dogs
>> I've seen who ar questionable often are not behaving in a way that
>> would be
>> tolerated from our dogs. If a dog is being claimed to be performing a
>> service and is behaving pretty well. I wound not have much of an issue.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Aaron Cannon" <cannona at fireantproductions.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 8:45 AM
>> Subject: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?
>>
>>
>> Hi all.
>>
>> The recent petition from CCI that was forwarded to this list made some
>> assertions:
>>
>> "When untrained pet dogs are somewhere they shouldn't be, it can
>> create all
>> kinds of problems that make business owners think twice before
>> allowing the
>> same access to legitimate service dogs and the people who need them.
>>
>> "This outrageous and potentially dangerous fraud only adds to the
>> discrimination often faced by people with disabilities who actually need
>> assistance dogs.
>>
>> "Legitimate service dogs require years of expert training to perform
>> specific commands like picking up dropped items and opening doors that
>> benefit people with disabilities - many of them U.S. veterans who are
>> injured while fighting for this country. These dogs provide calm,
>> reliable
>> assistance to their human partners and help them live more
>> independently.
>>
>> "Now is the time to crack down on service dog fraud and end the
>> online sale
>> of fake service dog certification products. Please don't allow the
>> benefits
>> of a service dog to be taken away from people who need them."
>>
>>
>> First, has anyone actually seen some evidence, anecdotal or
>> otherwise, that
>> this is as big a problem as they claim it is? Has anyone been denied
>> access
>> because someone else used a fake ID card? Honestly curious, as I
>> have no
>> information either way.
>>
>> Second, (and now I am being a bit sarcastic) did anyone's dog receive
>> a few
>> years of expert training? Did it concern you that your dog took over 6
>> times longer to train than the average? What sorts of amazing things
>> can
>> your dog do with all that expert training?
>>
>> Third, does anyone else get a bit suspicious when people or
>> organizations
>> start appealing to "think of the children" or "think of the service
>> men and
>> women" arguments to make their case?
>>
>> Fourth, has anyone seen anything that might indicate that the
>> benefits of
>> service dogs are in danger of being taken away from "those who need
>> them"?
>>
>> There are other issues with this petition which I'll address in another
>> email, but in short, I'd think carefully before signing.
>>
>> Aaron
>>
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