[nagdu] Owner trainers

[Shanna Stichler]

I personally never had a problem with access or anything like that. 
Finding a harness was difficult, not because there aren't places to get 
them, but because I'm very picky about my gear. I finally resorted to 
having one custom-made for me.

There is no agency who deems a dog worthy of becoming a qualified dog 
guide. The ADA does not require this, and actually under the current 
regulations, it would be illegal to insist on certification. I'd say 
most owner-trainers are very careful to make sure our dogs have a good 
obedience foundation before taking them out in public, at least to 
places that are not typically dog-friendly. If the dog miss-behaves, and 
they do at first, I just deal with the situation as it comes up. It's 
very clear to most people that I am taking steps to get my dog back 
under control, so I never had anyone complain about her naughtier 
moments. She never had accidents, chewed things she shouldn't, or 
anything like that though ether. If people did ask about her, I was 
always very honest about her in training status, and I would have 
understood if a business had concerns, but it really never came up for us.

Shanna and Diamond
On 8/19/2013 10:16 PM, Bridget Walker wrote:
> Hi All,
> I'm with Ken on this one.I could never own/train my dog. It is just one of those things I leave up to a training program.I'm not saying it can't be done because I would have some true paradigm paralysis.  With that I must ask about the certification evaluation. Who evaluates and determines if the dog becomes a service dog? How does one obtain the equipment and identification? I know you can go on line and buy a harness but, not saying owner trainers are doing this in any way but what about frauds. How do the owner trainers identify them selfs?
> I. Know there is a lot of talk especially in New York City about fake service dogs. How do the owner trainers get around the confusion without the help of a training program name. GEB GDF This is just my own curiosity because I really don't know and would like to be better informed.
> Bridget and Paulson
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 6:22 PM, "Ken Ace" <ken at acenovels.com> wrote:
>
>> Self training is NOT something my temperament would support. Fortunately for
>> my dog I recognize that and leave it to the professionals.  It makes for a
>> much more plesant world.
>> K&A
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 6:17 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Owner trainers
>>
>> Minh, Sherrie, Julie, everyone else..
>>
>> The steps Julie listed for the OT (owner-trainer) process match what I tend
>> to think of based on what I've learned from others and my own experience.
>>
>> I tend to list self-analysis as Step One. Some questions you might ask
>> yourself would have to do with whether you can follow through on an
>> intensive, all-consuming project for anywhere from 6 months to 2 years.
>> This would include looking at a projection of how stable you can expect your
>> life to be, how your resources are, etc. I know a few people who I think
>> would probably do very well at owner-training who have decided at some point
>> in this process that it is probably not for them for reasons that make
>> perfect sense. They don't want to tackle the dangers of traffic training,
>> for instance, so would rather have a professional do that. Or they simply
>> don't have time or budget or energy or certainty that they could maintain
>> any or all of the above for the duration of the training process. Others,
>> obviously, decide to go ahead and start hunting for the right pup. Two
>> things you will absolutely need, from what I have learned of other
>> successful OTs: Superlative O&M skills, especially the orientation part; and
>> the ability to remain calm and rational when it's about to hit the fan to
>> ensure that it doesn't while also communicating with and teaching a young
>> dog. This seems to come more easily to some people than to others, and only
>> you can know if you have that ability or can build it.
>>
>> Another part of the training is to prepare the pup for public access.
>> You can do a ton of groundwork, but sooner or later you will have to take
>> the dog into places of public accommodation which are generally pretty
>> high-stimulus and where there is a certain amount of pressure to have your
>> youngster be perfect. If you can do all the rest, you can find the balance
>> to pull it off. But the added hurdle there is the gray areas in the law
>> about public access and dogs in training. The early exposure is important,
>> but can you call the pup task trained? And even if it is (Mitzi learned her
>> first legit task in the first month), is it ready for public access (Mitzi
>> was totally *not*!)? I used gradual exposure to similar situations and
>> stimuli, then took to sitting near outdoor eateries, then sitting in them
>> and actually enjoying a cup of coffee and stuff like that. My poodle pup was
>> pretty excitable -- as a super mellow member of her breed, apparently, which
>> scares me -- so I had to take it slow and really work teaching her to keep
>> herself calm. There was a lot of levitating and wriggling. One reason I want
>> to start a younger pup next time is to get some of that conditioning in
>> while it is still timid and impressionable. Not sure my nerves will survive
>> another mustang poodle. /shudder/ For indoor trainining, I did my own PR
>> with various stores in my area and just explained what I was doing, the
>> legalities were technically there by then but not the etiquette, did they
>> mind if I brought her in when it wasn't too busy to work on that? I assured
>> them that if she got out of hand, they could have me removed while promising
>> to take her out myself if she wasn't ready to act like a grown up. They were
>> great, and this worked as I gradually got her to the point I could actually
>> buy a pack of gum without my dog defying the laws of physics out of
>> excitement. The wiggling and all was embarrassing, even if everyone else
>> thought it was adorable and hysterical. Sigh. I need Tums thinking about it!
>> /lol/
>>
>> Change of messages I am replying to: Finish the book, Julie! I'm going to
>> need that! /grin/
>>
>> Tami
>>
>> On 08/19/2013 01:50 PM, Julie J. wrote:
>>> Yes, I  do traffic training with my dogs.  Traffic avoidance is one of
>>> those top level skills.  There is a lot of building blocks to get
>>> there.  First, the dog must understand stationary obstacles, on the
>>> left and right.  Next would be maybe pedestrian traffic of a normal
>>> variety, think people at a bank, post office, office building etc.
>>> Next maybe larger crowds and more sporadic walking patterns, think
>>> shopping malls, Wal-Mart on Saturday morning, kids at a playground
>>> etc.  The next level might be small wheeled obstacles.  I have my
>>> Kiddo wheel our large trash bin around to do this part.  It's loud so
>>> I know what's going on every step of the process. Shopping carts,
>>> responsible bicyclist, roller skaters etc. would be other examples in
>>> this category.  then move up to kids on skateboards not paying too
>>> much attention, bicyclists talking on their phones, Moms with 7 kids
>>> who are talking on their phone while pushing the shopping cart at
>>> Wal-Mart on the Saturday morning...you get the idea.  Accidents up to
>>> this point are going to be unpleasant, but not fatal.
>>>
>>> Once the dog has a solid understanding of moving obstacles and I do
>>> mean solid, then find a friend or family member who likes you and get
>>> them to drive at you, but not to actually harm you.  I start in the
>>> driveway with the car pulling in as I'm walking down the sidewalk.
>>> Move to more difficult situations, car turning right in front of you
>>> as you cross the street, car backing up, etc.  Your dog already knows
>>> obstacle avoidance, the traffic is just practice with bigger and faster
>> obstacles.
>>> Monty is super traffic aware.  He paused just last night in the
>>> Wal-Mart parking lot because there was a car backing out.  There's an
>>> alley I have to cross on my way to work that has a building right next
>>> to it, completely blocking the driver's view of any approaching
>> pedestrians.
>>> We get a traffic check there every few weeks.  There's been lots of
>>> others.  The scariest one ever was at the pedestrian crosswalk.  I had
>>> pushed the button and had the light to cross.   We were half or a little
>>> more across when a lady ran the red light and came within inches of
>>> turning us into road pizza.  Monty did this ninja maneuver to get us
>>> out of the way with about a hair's breadth to spare.  One gentleman
>>> who saw it thought Monty had been hit because of the way he moved.  It
>>> was that close.
>>>
>>> I know of other owner trainers who have used two way radios or other
>>> communication tools to keep in constant contact with the driver while
>>> they are training traffic.  It's a good idea, but I haven't done that.
>>> I just talk things through with the driver so I know what to expect.
>>> And of course there's going to be natural occurring traffic checks
>>> throughout the training process.  For those you just have to do the
>>> best that you can.  All the same safety rules apply that you would
>>> observe if you were using a cane.  You just have to remember that it
>>> is your absolute responsibility to keep the team safe, not the dog's,
>>> until the very end of training when the dog shows competence in
>>> traffic.  Then you are still responsible, but the dog helps. You get what
>> I mean.
>>> HTH
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Sherry Gomes
>>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 3:19 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Owner trainers
>>>
>>> Hey Julie,
>>>
>>> thank you for this informative message. The idea of hiring a trainer
>>> for my next dog has been brewing in my head, as I expect I won't
>>> return to GDB unless they undo some of the damage they did to their
>>> program this year. I also with my other disabilities, don't feel I
>>> could easily start over at a different program. I also don't think I
>>> could have the time to train my own dog. So, I've considered hiring
>>> someone, when the time comes. Out of curiosity, do you train your dogs to
>> do traffic checks,a nd if so, how?
>>> Thanks again for this great message. I enjoyed reading it so
>>> much.Sherry
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
>>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:54 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Owner trainers
>>>
>>> I just picked out a puppy that is being privately trained for me.
>>> Coincidentally the private trainer is also blind. I wrote about it
>>> recently on the list...maybe a month ago or so.
>>>
>>> In short I was looking for a puppy who was friendly, interested in
>>> what was going on around her, bold, and confident.  I relied quite a
>>> bit on the Puppy
>>>
>>> Aptitude Test, somewhat on the breeders suggestion and my own instincts.
>>> There is a significant correlation between the retrieve puppy test and
>>> successful guide dogs.
>>>
>>> I think the most difficult part of owner training is finding a puppy
>>> or dog that has the temperament to make a good guide.  I've been
>>> thinking about what I want in my next dog since I finished training Monty
>> four years ago.
>>> I started looking for a breeder last fall and finally things came
>>> together this summer.
>>>
>>> The second most difficult part is raising the puppy.  Monty and Belle
>>> were older puppies when I got them.  They were a handful, but Miss
>>> Jetta at 8 weeks old required more work than three of Monty.  Baby
>>> puppies know nothing...what to chew on, when to sleep, where to sleep,
>>> how to be on their
>>>
>>> own, where to pee...It's like having a newborn baby, except a puppy
>>> can walk, run, jump, has teeth and gets into everything.  They are cute
>> though!
>>> *smile*
>>>
>>> The actual guide training is the easy part.  By this point, you should
>> have
>>> a well socialized dog with nice manners who knows how to learn.   It's
>> like
>>> dog college.  College students want to be there.  they are dedicated
>>> learners.  Compare that with a preschool or kindergarten.  I suppose a
>>> really good early childhood teacher could keep a neat, clean, quiet
>>> and orderly room, but mostly there's a lot of finger-paint on the
>>> walls, snot running from noses, many trips to the bathroom, lots of
>>> running and shouting
>>>
>>> and general mayhem.  See what I mean?  Seriously, the guide part is a
>>> breeze!
>>>
>>> So there are some options when training a new dog...you can use your
>>> cane to
>>>
>>> find obstacles and curbs so you can teach the dog what you want when
>>> you encounter them.  Or you can use a familiar environment, like your
>>> front yard
>>>
>>> with maybe some set up cues to help you, like a radio on the front
>>> porch or a rug at the top of the steps or things like that.  another
>>> method is to work your current guide and have the trainee tag along.
>>> The younger dog will pick up a lot from the older more experienced
>>> dog.  Of course that only
>>>
>>> works if you have a current working dog.
>>>
>>> Each method has advantages and disadvantages.  Probably a mix of
>>> approaches is what ends up working.  I mostly introduce things in a
>>> familiar environment, then supplement with the use of a cane.  I also
>>> worked Monty only in areas where I was reasonably certain of my safety
>>> given his current level of training.  So if he didn't know to stop at
>>> stairs, I didn't take him to places with stairs without a back up
>>> plan, until he mastered that skill.  This meant that I would prescout
>> places to train with him.
>>> No, you don't have to go through any training to owner train a guide
>>> dog.  I
>>>
>>> had a lot of experience training dogs in other capacities before I
>>> trained my first guide, but zero experience training a guide dog.  I
>>> have never had a guide from a program.  I've trained three guides and
>>> my next guide is ten weeks old and living with her trainer.  I just
>>> didn't have the energy to owner train again.  It's an incredible amount of
>> time and energy.
>>> To teach a dog to stop at curbs is really easy.  I approach the curb
>>> with the dog, I stop at the curb where I want the dog to stop.  I
>>> prefer just a bit back from the edge, instead of having my toes hang
>>> over.  The dog should
>>>
>>> stop with you because they have already been taught to walk nicely on
>>> leash.
>>>
>>> When the dog stops, click and treat or tell him good boy and give pets
>>> or whatever method you use.  Rinse and repeat.  The dog will learn
>>> extremely quickly that he should stop at the curb to receive his
>>> accolades.  Then with
>>>
>>> the dog in harness or on leash but a bit ahead, pay special attention
>>> to any
>>>
>>> indication that the dog is slowing or stopping before you do.  Click
>>> and treat the moment he shows that he is stopping or hesitating at the
>> curb.
>>> rinse and repeat until the dog takes the initiative to stop before you
>>> stop.
>>>
>>> Now take the show on the road and practice with other curbs.  Once
>>> that is mastered, add in blended curbs.  Teaching to stop at stairs is
>>> the next level of this training.  Just keep layering skills onto the
>>> basic building blocks the dog already knows.  It's like Legos!
>>>
>>> There is no book about training your own guide dog currently
>>> available.  I am working on one.  I had hoped to have it out about two
>> years ago now.
>>> *sigh*   It is in the final revision phase.  I need to fix some
>> punctuation
>>> problems.  I've also been asked to include more about the actual how
>>> to parts of owner training.  I haven't decided if I want to do that or
>> not.
>>> Anyway when I do finally get the book done, I will be self publishing
>>> it as an eBook.  I'll let everyone know when that happens.  We'll have
>>> to have a party or something.  I've been working on this project for
>> forever!
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
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