[nagdu] Owner trainers

[Danielle Nicole Larsen]

Haha i
m sorry i keep replying guys. I just kee findingn more messages related to this thread and tend to forget my thoughts. I promise this will be my last one! Shanna, who made your harness for you? Trinitys harness I had the actual harness part made. it is actually a leather walking harness. There were two rings on the side and i purchased a matching but separate handle from elsewhere and use that with it. The harness is phenomenal and I adore it! It works perfectly. 

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 19, 2013, at 23:30, Shanna Stichler <slstich at gmail.com> wrote:

> I personally never had a problem with access or anything like that. Finding a harness was difficult, not because there aren't places to get them, but because I'm very picky about my gear. I finally resorted to having one custom-made for me.
> 
> There is no agency who deems a dog worthy of becoming a qualified dog guide. The ADA does not require this, and actually under the current regulations, it would be illegal to insist on certification. I'd say most owner-trainers are very careful to make sure our dogs have a good obedience foundation before taking them out in public, at least to places that are not typically dog-friendly. If the dog miss-behaves, and they do at first, I just deal with the situation as it comes up. It's very clear to most people that I am taking steps to get my dog back under control, so I never had anyone complain about her naughtier moments. She never had accidents, chewed things she shouldn't, or anything like that though ether. If people did ask about her, I was always very honest about her in training status, and I would have understood if a business had concerns, but it really never came up for us.
> 
> Shanna and Diamond
> On 8/19/2013 10:16 PM, Bridget Walker wrote:
>> Hi All,
>> I'm with Ken on this one.I could never own/train my dog. It is just one of those things I leave up to a training program.I'm not saying it can't be done because I would have some true paradigm paralysis.  With that I must ask about the certification evaluation. Who evaluates and determines if the dog becomes a service dog? How does one obtain the equipment and identification? I know you can go on line and buy a harness but, not saying owner trainers are doing this in any way but what about frauds. How do the owner trainers identify them selfs?
>> I. Know there is a lot of talk especially in New York City about fake service dogs. How do the owner trainers get around the confusion without the help of a training program name. GEB GDF This is just my own curiosity because I really don't know and would like to be better informed.
>> Bridget and Paulson
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> On Aug 19, 2013, at 6:22 PM, "Ken Ace" <ken at acenovels.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Self training is NOT something my temperament would support. Fortunately for
>>> my dog I recognize that and leave it to the professionals.  It makes for a
>>> much more plesant world.
>>> K&A
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
>>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 6:17 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Owner trainers
>>> 
>>> Minh, Sherrie, Julie, everyone else..
>>> 
>>> The steps Julie listed for the OT (owner-trainer) process match what I tend
>>> to think of based on what I've learned from others and my own experience.
>>> 
>>> I tend to list self-analysis as Step One. Some questions you might ask
>>> yourself would have to do with whether you can follow through on an
>>> intensive, all-consuming project for anywhere from 6 months to 2 years.
>>> This would include looking at a projection of how stable you can expect your
>>> life to be, how your resources are, etc. I know a few people who I think
>>> would probably do very well at owner-training who have decided at some point
>>> in this process that it is probably not for them for reasons that make
>>> perfect sense. They don't want to tackle the dangers of traffic training,
>>> for instance, so would rather have a professional do that. Or they simply
>>> don't have time or budget or energy or certainty that they could maintain
>>> any or all of the above for the duration of the training process. Others,
>>> obviously, decide to go ahead and start hunting for the right pup. Two
>>> things you will absolutely need, from what I have learned of other
>>> successful OTs: Superlative O&M skills, especially the orientation part; and
>>> the ability to remain calm and rational when it's about to hit the fan to
>>> ensure that it doesn't while also communicating with and teaching a young
>>> dog. This seems to come more easily to some people than to others, and only
>>> you can know if you have that ability or can build it.
>>> 
>>> Another part of the training is to prepare the pup for public access.
>>> You can do a ton of groundwork, but sooner or later you will have to take
>>> the dog into places of public accommodation which are generally pretty
>>> high-stimulus and where there is a certain amount of pressure to have your
>>> youngster be perfect. If you can do all the rest, you can find the balance
>>> to pull it off. But the added hurdle there is the gray areas in the law
>>> about public access and dogs in training. The early exposure is important,
>>> but can you call the pup task trained? And even if it is (Mitzi learned her
>>> first legit task in the first month), is it ready for public access (Mitzi
>>> was totally *not*!)? I used gradual exposure to similar situations and
>>> stimuli, then took to sitting near outdoor eateries, then sitting in them
>>> and actually enjoying a cup of coffee and stuff like that. My poodle pup was
>>> pretty excitable -- as a super mellow member of her breed, apparently, which
>>> scares me -- so I had to take it slow and really work teaching her to keep
>>> herself calm. There was a lot of levitating and wriggling. One reason I want
>>> to start a younger pup next time is to get some of that conditioning in
>>> while it is still timid and impressionable. Not sure my nerves will survive
>>> another mustang poodle. /shudder/ For indoor trainining, I did my own PR
>>> with various stores in my area and just explained what I was doing, the
>>> legalities were technically there by then but not the etiquette, did they
>>> mind if I brought her in when it wasn't too busy to work on that? I assured
>>> them that if she got out of hand, they could have me removed while promising
>>> to take her out myself if she wasn't ready to act like a grown up. They were
>>> great, and this worked as I gradually got her to the point I could actually
>>> buy a pack of gum without my dog defying the laws of physics out of
>>> excitement. The wiggling and all was embarrassing, even if everyone else
>>> thought it was adorable and hysterical. Sigh. I need Tums thinking about it!
>>> /lol/
>>> 
>>> Change of messages I am replying to: Finish the book, Julie! I'm going to
>>> need that! /grin/
>>> 
>>> Tami
>>> 
>>> On 08/19/2013 01:50 PM, Julie J. wrote:
>>>> Yes, I  do traffic training with my dogs.  Traffic avoidance is one of
>>>> those top level skills.  There is a lot of building blocks to get
>>>> there.  First, the dog must understand stationary obstacles, on the
>>>> left and right.  Next would be maybe pedestrian traffic of a normal
>>>> variety, think people at a bank, post office, office building etc.
>>>> Next maybe larger crowds and more sporadic walking patterns, think
>>>> shopping malls, Wal-Mart on Saturday morning, kids at a playground
>>>> etc.  The next level might be small wheeled obstacles.  I have my
>>>> Kiddo wheel our large trash bin around to do this part.  It's loud so
>>>> I know what's going on every step of the process. Shopping carts,
>>>> responsible bicyclist, roller skaters etc. would be other examples in
>>>> this category.  then move up to kids on skateboards not paying too
>>>> much attention, bicyclists talking on their phones, Moms with 7 kids
>>>> who are talking on their phone while pushing the shopping cart at
>>>> Wal-Mart on the Saturday morning...you get the idea.  Accidents up to
>>>> this point are going to be unpleasant, but not fatal.
>>>> 
>>>> Once the dog has a solid understanding of moving obstacles and I do
>>>> mean solid, then find a friend or family member who likes you and get
>>>> them to drive at you, but not to actually harm you.  I start in the
>>>> driveway with the car pulling in as I'm walking down the sidewalk.
>>>> Move to more difficult situations, car turning right in front of you
>>>> as you cross the street, car backing up, etc.  Your dog already knows
>>>> obstacle avoidance, the traffic is just practice with bigger and faster
>>> obstacles.
>>>> Monty is super traffic aware.  He paused just last night in the
>>>> Wal-Mart parking lot because there was a car backing out.  There's an
>>>> alley I have to cross on my way to work that has a building right next
>>>> to it, completely blocking the driver's view of any approaching
>>> pedestrians.
>>>> We get a traffic check there every few weeks.  There's been lots of
>>>> others.  The scariest one ever was at the pedestrian crosswalk.  I had
>>>> pushed the button and had the light to cross.   We were half or a little
>>>> more across when a lady ran the red light and came within inches of
>>>> turning us into road pizza.  Monty did this ninja maneuver to get us
>>>> out of the way with about a hair's breadth to spare.  One gentleman
>>>> who saw it thought Monty had been hit because of the way he moved.  It
>>>> was that close.
>>>> 
>>>> I know of other owner trainers who have used two way radios or other
>>>> communication tools to keep in constant contact with the driver while
>>>> they are training traffic.  It's a good idea, but I haven't done that.
>>>> I just talk things through with the driver so I know what to expect.
>>>> And of course there's going to be natural occurring traffic checks
>>>> throughout the training process.  For those you just have to do the
>>>> best that you can.  All the same safety rules apply that you would
>>>> observe if you were using a cane.  You just have to remember that it
>>>> is your absolute responsibility to keep the team safe, not the dog's,
>>>> until the very end of training when the dog shows competence in
>>>> traffic.  Then you are still responsible, but the dog helps. You get what
>>> I mean.
>>>> HTH
>>>> Julie
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Sherry Gomes
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 3:19 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Owner trainers
>>>> 
>>>> Hey Julie,
>>>> 
>>>> thank you for this informative message. The idea of hiring a trainer
>>>> for my next dog has been brewing in my head, as I expect I won't
>>>> return to GDB unless they undo some of the damage they did to their
>>>> program this year. I also with my other disabilities, don't feel I
>>>> could easily start over at a different program. I also don't think I
>>>> could have the time to train my own dog. So, I've considered hiring
>>>> someone, when the time comes. Out of curiosity, do you train your dogs to
>>> do traffic checks,a nd if so, how?
>>>> Thanks again for this great message. I enjoyed reading it so
>>>> much.Sherry
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:54 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Owner trainers
>>>> 
>>>> I just picked out a puppy that is being privately trained for me.
>>>> Coincidentally the private trainer is also blind. I wrote about it
>>>> recently on the list...maybe a month ago or so.
>>>> 
>>>> In short I was looking for a puppy who was friendly, interested in
>>>> what was going on around her, bold, and confident.  I relied quite a
>>>> bit on the Puppy
>>>> 
>>>> Aptitude Test, somewhat on the breeders suggestion and my own instincts.
>>>> There is a significant correlation between the retrieve puppy test and
>>>> successful guide dogs.
>>>> 
>>>> I think the most difficult part of owner training is finding a puppy
>>>> or dog that has the temperament to make a good guide.  I've been
>>>> thinking about what I want in my next dog since I finished training Monty
>>> four years ago.
>>>> I started looking for a breeder last fall and finally things came
>>>> together this summer.
>>>> 
>>>> The second most difficult part is raising the puppy.  Monty and Belle
>>>> were older puppies when I got them.  They were a handful, but Miss
>>>> Jetta at 8 weeks old required more work than three of Monty.  Baby
>>>> puppies know nothing...what to chew on, when to sleep, where to sleep,
>>>> how to be on their
>>>> 
>>>> own, where to pee...It's like having a newborn baby, except a puppy
>>>> can walk, run, jump, has teeth and gets into everything.  They are cute
>>> though!
>>>> *smile*
>>>> 
>>>> The actual guide training is the easy part.  By this point, you should
>>> have
>>>> a well socialized dog with nice manners who knows how to learn.   It's
>>> like
>>>> dog college.  College students want to be there.  they are dedicated
>>>> learners.  Compare that with a preschool or kindergarten.  I suppose a
>>>> really good early childhood teacher could keep a neat, clean, quiet
>>>> and orderly room, but mostly there's a lot of finger-paint on the
>>>> walls, snot running from noses, many trips to the bathroom, lots of
>>>> running and shouting
>>>> 
>>>> and general mayhem.  See what I mean?  Seriously, the guide part is a
>>>> breeze!
>>>> 
>>>> So there are some options when training a new dog...you can use your
>>>> cane to
>>>> 
>>>> find obstacles and curbs so you can teach the dog what you want when
>>>> you encounter them.  Or you can use a familiar environment, like your
>>>> front yard
>>>> 
>>>> with maybe some set up cues to help you, like a radio on the front
>>>> porch or a rug at the top of the steps or things like that.  another
>>>> method is to work your current guide and have the trainee tag along.
>>>> The younger dog will pick up a lot from the older more experienced
>>>> dog.  Of course that only
>>>> 
>>>> works if you have a current working dog.
>>>> 
>>>> Each method has advantages and disadvantages.  Probably a mix of
>>>> approaches is what ends up working.  I mostly introduce things in a
>>>> familiar environment, then supplement with the use of a cane.  I also
>>>> worked Monty only in areas where I was reasonably certain of my safety
>>>> given his current level of training.  So if he didn't know to stop at
>>>> stairs, I didn't take him to places with stairs without a back up
>>>> plan, until he mastered that skill.  This meant that I would prescout
>>> places to train with him.
>>>> No, you don't have to go through any training to owner train a guide
>>>> dog.  I
>>>> 
>>>> had a lot of experience training dogs in other capacities before I
>>>> trained my first guide, but zero experience training a guide dog.  I
>>>> have never had a guide from a program.  I've trained three guides and
>>>> my next guide is ten weeks old and living with her trainer.  I just
>>>> didn't have the energy to owner train again.  It's an incredible amount of
>>> time and energy.
>>>> To teach a dog to stop at curbs is really easy.  I approach the curb
>>>> with the dog, I stop at the curb where I want the dog to stop.  I
>>>> prefer just a bit back from the edge, instead of having my toes hang
>>>> over.  The dog should
>>>> 
>>>> stop with you because they have already been taught to walk nicely on
>>>> leash.
>>>> 
>>>> When the dog stops, click and treat or tell him good boy and give pets
>>>> or whatever method you use.  Rinse and repeat.  The dog will learn
>>>> extremely quickly that he should stop at the curb to receive his
>>>> accolades.  Then with
>>>> 
>>>> the dog in harness or on leash but a bit ahead, pay special attention
>>>> to any
>>>> 
>>>> indication that the dog is slowing or stopping before you do.  Click
>>>> and treat the moment he shows that he is stopping or hesitating at the
>>> curb.
>>>> rinse and repeat until the dog takes the initiative to stop before you
>>>> stop.
>>>> 
>>>> Now take the show on the road and practice with other curbs.  Once
>>>> that is mastered, add in blended curbs.  Teaching to stop at stairs is
>>>> the next level of this training.  Just keep layering skills onto the
>>>> basic building blocks the dog already knows.  It's like Legos!
>>>> 
>>>> There is no book about training your own guide dog currently
>>>> available.  I am working on one.  I had hoped to have it out about two
>>> years ago now.
>>>> *sigh*   It is in the final revision phase.  I need to fix some
>>> punctuation
>>>> problems.  I've also been asked to include more about the actual how
>>>> to parts of owner training.  I haven't decided if I want to do that or
>>> not.
>>>> Anyway when I do finally get the book done, I will be self publishing
>>>> it as an eBook.  I'll let everyone know when that happens.  We'll have
>>>> to have a party or something.  I've been working on this project for
>>> forever!
>>>> Julie
>>>> 
>>>> 
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