[nagdu] Owner trainers

Tue Aug 20 21:37:20 UTC 2013

Hi Danielle,

First, there is indeed hope for our more intense canine friends. :D It does take a lot of consistent work with them in distracting environments. My dog does well now, but even so she'll occasionally forget herself at the sight of a scampering squirrel. She is never unsafe for me or anything, just gets a bit distracted. It sounds like you're on top of things with Trinity, which is good. Feel free to let me know if I can answer any questions or just talk things over. That helps sometimes, I've found.

Anyway, with regard to my harness, I actually got it from LDS Leather. They are in business still, but I don't think they advertise their service dog gear much anymore. I am happy with the harness, particularly the offset handle, but that company isn't the easiest in the world to deal with.

Shanna and Diamond

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 20, 2013, at 11:59 AM, Danielle Nicole Larsen <dnlarsen75 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Haha i
> m sorry i keep replying guys. I just kee findingn more messages related to this thread and tend to forget my thoughts. I promise this will be my last one! Shanna, who made your harness for you? Trinitys harness I had the actual harness part made. it is actually a leather walking harness. There were two rings on the side and i purchased a matching but separate handle from elsewhere and use that with it. The harness is phenomenal and I adore it! It works perfectly. 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 23:30, Shanna Stichler <slstich at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I personally never had a problem with access or anything like that. Finding a harness was difficult, not because there aren't places to get them, but because I'm very picky about my gear. I finally resorted to having one custom-made for me.
>> 
>> There is no agency who deems a dog worthy of becoming a qualified dog guide. The ADA does not require this, and actually under the current regulations, it would be illegal to insist on certification. I'd say most owner-trainers are very careful to make sure our dogs have a good obedience foundation before taking them out in public, at least to places that are not typically dog-friendly. If the dog miss-behaves, and they do at first, I just deal with the situation as it comes up. It's very clear to most people that I am taking steps to get my dog back under control, so I never had anyone complain about her naughtier moments. She never had accidents, chewed things she shouldn't, or anything like that though ether. If people did ask about her, I was always very honest about her in training status, and I would have understood if a business had concerns, but it really never came up for us.
>> 
>> Shanna and Diamond
>> On 8/19/2013 10:16 PM, Bridget Walker wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>> I'm with Ken on this one.I could never own/train my dog. It is just one of those things I leave up to a training program.I'm not saying it can't be done because I would have some true paradigm paralysis.  With that I must ask about the certification evaluation. Who evaluates and determines if the dog becomes a service dog? How does one obtain the equipment and identification? I know you can go on line and buy a harness but, not saying owner trainers are doing this in any way but what about frauds. How do the owner trainers identify them selfs?
>>> I. Know there is a lot of talk especially in New York City about fake service dogs. How do the owner trainers get around the confusion without the help of a training program name. GEB GDF This is just my own curiosity because I really don't know and would like to be better informed.
>>> Bridget and Paulson
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> 
>>> On Aug 19, 2013, at 6:22 PM, "Ken Ace" <ken at acenovels.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Self training is NOT something my temperament would support. Fortunately for
>>>> my dog I recognize that and leave it to the professionals.  It makes for a
>>>> much more plesant world.
>>>> K&A
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 6:17 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Owner trainers
>>>> 
>>>> Minh, Sherrie, Julie, everyone else..
>>>> 
>>>> The steps Julie listed for the OT (owner-trainer) process match what I tend
>>>> to think of based on what I've learned from others and my own experience.
>>>> 
>>>> I tend to list self-analysis as Step One. Some questions you might ask
>>>> yourself would have to do with whether you can follow through on an
>>>> intensive, all-consuming project for anywhere from 6 months to 2 years.
>>>> This would include looking at a projection of how stable you can expect your
>>>> life to be, how your resources are, etc. I know a few people who I think
>>>> would probably do very well at owner-training who have decided at some point
>>>> in this process that it is probably not for them for reasons that make
>>>> perfect sense. They don't want to tackle the dangers of traffic training,
>>>> for instance, so would rather have a professional do that. Or they simply
>>>> don't have time or budget or energy or certainty that they could maintain
>>>> any or all of the above for the duration of the training process. Others,
>>>> obviously, decide to go ahead and start hunting for the right pup. Two
>>>> things you will absolutely need, from what I have learned of other
>>>> successful OTs: Superlative O&M skills, especially the orientation part; and
>>>> the ability to remain calm and rational when it's about to hit the fan to
>>>> ensure that it doesn't while also communicating with and teaching a young
>>>> dog. This seems to come more easily to some people than to others, and only
>>>> you can know if you have that ability or can build it.
>>>> 
>>>> Another part of the training is to prepare the pup for public access.
>>>> You can do a ton of groundwork, but sooner or later you will have to take
>>>> the dog into places of public accommodation which are generally pretty
>>>> high-stimulus and where there is a certain amount of pressure to have your
>>>> youngster be perfect. If you can do all the rest, you can find the balance
>>>> to pull it off. But the added hurdle there is the gray areas in the law
>>>> about public access and dogs in training. The early exposure is important,
>>>> but can you call the pup task trained? And even if it is (Mitzi learned her
>>>> first legit task in the first month), is it ready for public access (Mitzi
>>>> was totally *not*!)? I used gradual exposure to similar situations and
>>>> stimuli, then took to sitting near outdoor eateries, then sitting in them
>>>> and actually enjoying a cup of coffee and stuff like that. My poodle pup was
>>>> pretty excitable -- as a super mellow member of her breed, apparently, which
>>>> scares me -- so I had to take it slow and really work teaching her to keep
>>>> herself calm. There was a lot of levitating and wriggling. One reason I want
>>>> to start a younger pup next time is to get some of that conditioning in
>>>> while it is still timid and impressionable. Not sure my nerves will survive
>>>> another mustang poodle. /shudder/ For indoor trainining, I did my own PR
>>>> with various stores in my area and just explained what I was doing, the
>>>> legalities were technically there by then but not the etiquette, did they
>>>> mind if I brought her in when it wasn't too busy to work on that? I assured
>>>> them that if she got out of hand, they could have me removed while promising
>>>> to take her out myself if she wasn't ready to act like a grown up. They were
>>>> great, and this worked as I gradually got her to the point I could actually
>>>> buy a pack of gum without my dog defying the laws of physics out of
>>>> excitement. The wiggling and all was embarrassing, even if everyone else
>>>> thought it was adorable and hysterical. Sigh. I need Tums thinking about it!
>>>> /lol/
>>>> 
>>>> Change of messages I am replying to: Finish the book, Julie! I'm going to
>>>> need that! /grin/
>>>> 
>>>> Tami
>>>> 
>>>> On 08/19/2013 01:50 PM, Julie J. wrote:
>>>>> Yes, I  do traffic training with my dogs.  Traffic avoidance is one of
>>>>> those top level skills.  There is a lot of building blocks to get
>>>>> there.  First, the dog must understand stationary obstacles, on the
>>>>> left and right.  Next would be maybe pedestrian traffic of a normal
>>>>> variety, think people at a bank, post office, office building etc.
>>>>> Next maybe larger crowds and more sporadic walking patterns, think
>>>>> shopping malls, Wal-Mart on Saturday morning, kids at a playground
>>>>> etc.  The next level might be small wheeled obstacles.  I have my
>>>>> Kiddo wheel our large trash bin around to do this part.  It's loud so
>>>>> I know what's going on every step of the process. Shopping carts,
>>>>> responsible bicyclist, roller skaters etc. would be other examples in
>>>>> this category.  then move up to kids on skateboards not paying too
>>>>> much attention, bicyclists talking on their phones, Moms with 7 kids
>>>>> who are talking on their phone while pushing the shopping cart at
>>>>> Wal-Mart on the Saturday morning...you get the idea.  Accidents up to
>>>>> this point are going to be unpleasant, but not fatal.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Once the dog has a solid understanding of moving obstacles and I do
>>>>> mean solid, then find a friend or family member who likes you and get
>>>>> them to drive at you, but not to actually harm you.  I start in the
>>>>> driveway with the car pulling in as I'm walking down the sidewalk.
>>>>> Move to more difficult situations, car turning right in front of you
>>>>> as you cross the street, car backing up, etc.  Your dog already knows
>>>>> obstacle avoidance, the traffic is just practice with bigger and faster
>>>> obstacles.
>>>>> Monty is super traffic aware.  He paused just last night in the
>>>>> Wal-Mart parking lot because there was a car backing out.  There's an
>>>>> alley I have to cross on my way to work that has a building right next
>>>>> to it, completely blocking the driver's view of any approaching
>>>> pedestrians.
>>>>> We get a traffic check there every few weeks.  There's been lots of
>>>>> others.  The scariest one ever was at the pedestrian crosswalk.  I had
>>>>> pushed the button and had the light to cross.   We were half or a little
>>>>> more across when a lady ran the red light and came within inches of
>>>>> turning us into road pizza.  Monty did this ninja maneuver to get us
>>>>> out of the way with about a hair's breadth to spare.  One gentleman
>>>>> who saw it thought Monty had been hit because of the way he moved.  It
>>>>> was that close.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I know of other owner trainers who have used two way radios or other
>>>>> communication tools to keep in constant contact with the driver while
>>>>> they are training traffic.  It's a good idea, but I haven't done that.
>>>>> I just talk things through with the driver so I know what to expect.
>>>>> And of course there's going to be natural occurring traffic checks
>>>>> throughout the training process.  For those you just have to do the
>>>>> best that you can.  All the same safety rules apply that you would
>>>>> observe if you were using a cane.  You just have to remember that it
>>>>> is your absolute responsibility to keep the team safe, not the dog's,
>>>>> until the very end of training when the dog shows competence in
>>>>> traffic.  Then you are still responsible, but the dog helps. You get what
>>>> I mean.
>>>>> HTH
>>>>> Julie
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Sherry Gomes
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 3:19 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Owner trainers
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hey Julie,
>>>>> 
>>>>> thank you for this informative message. The idea of hiring a trainer
>>>>> for my next dog has been brewing in my head, as I expect I won't
>>>>> return to GDB unless they undo some of the damage they did to their
>>>>> program this year. I also with my other disabilities, don't feel I
>>>>> could easily start over at a different program. I also don't think I
>>>>> could have the time to train my own dog. So, I've considered hiring
>>>>> someone, when the time comes. Out of curiosity, do you train your dogs to
>>>> do traffic checks,a nd if so, how?
>>>>> Thanks again for this great message. I enjoyed reading it so
>>>>> much.Sherry
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:54 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Owner trainers
>>>>> 
>>>>> I just picked out a puppy that is being privately trained for me.
>>>>> Coincidentally the private trainer is also blind. I wrote about it
>>>>> recently on the list...maybe a month ago or so.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In short I was looking for a puppy who was friendly, interested in
>>>>> what was going on around her, bold, and confident.  I relied quite a
>>>>> bit on the Puppy
>>>>> 
>>>>> Aptitude Test, somewhat on the breeders suggestion and my own instincts.
>>>>> There is a significant correlation between the retrieve puppy test and
>>>>> successful guide dogs.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think the most difficult part of owner training is finding a puppy
>>>>> or dog that has the temperament to make a good guide.  I've been
>>>>> thinking about what I want in my next dog since I finished training Monty
>>>> four years ago.
>>>>> I started looking for a breeder last fall and finally things came
>>>>> together this summer.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The second most difficult part is raising the puppy.  Monty and Belle
>>>>> were older puppies when I got them.  They were a handful, but Miss
>>>>> Jetta at 8 weeks old required more work than three of Monty.  Baby
>>>>> puppies know nothing...what to chew on, when to sleep, where to sleep,
>>>>> how to be on their
>>>>> 
>>>>> own, where to pee...It's like having a newborn baby, except a puppy
>>>>> can walk, run, jump, has teeth and gets into everything.  They are cute
>>>> though!
>>>>> *smile*
>>>>> 
>>>>> The actual guide training is the easy part.  By this point, you should
>>>> have
>>>>> a well socialized dog with nice manners who knows how to learn.   It's
>>>> like
>>>>> dog college.  College students want to be there.  they are dedicated
>>>>> learners.  Compare that with a preschool or kindergarten.  I suppose a
>>>>> really good early childhood teacher could keep a neat, clean, quiet
>>>>> and orderly room, but mostly there's a lot of finger-paint on the
>>>>> walls, snot running from noses, many trips to the bathroom, lots of
>>>>> running and shouting
>>>>> 
>>>>> and general mayhem.  See what I mean?  Seriously, the guide part is a
>>>>> breeze!
>>>>> 
>>>>> So there are some options when training a new dog...you can use your
>>>>> cane to
>>>>> 
>>>>> find obstacles and curbs so you can teach the dog what you want when
>>>>> you encounter them.  Or you can use a familiar environment, like your
>>>>> front yard
>>>>> 
>>>>> with maybe some set up cues to help you, like a radio on the front
>>>>> porch or a rug at the top of the steps or things like that.  another
>>>>> method is to work your current guide and have the trainee tag along.
>>>>> The younger dog will pick up a lot from the older more experienced
>>>>> dog.  Of course that only
>>>>> 
>>>>> works if you have a current working dog.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Each method has advantages and disadvantages.  Probably a mix of
>>>>> approaches is what ends up working.  I mostly introduce things in a
>>>>> familiar environment, then supplement with the use of a cane.  I also
>>>>> worked Monty only in areas where I was reasonably certain of my safety
>>>>> given his current level of training.  So if he didn't know to stop at
>>>>> stairs, I didn't take him to places with stairs without a back up
>>>>> plan, until he mastered that skill.  This meant that I would prescout
>>>> places to train with him.
>>>>> No, you don't have to go through any training to owner train a guide
>>>>> dog.  I
>>>>> 
>>>>> had a lot of experience training dogs in other capacities before I
>>>>> trained my first guide, but zero experience training a guide dog.  I
>>>>> have never had a guide from a program.  I've trained three guides and
>>>>> my next guide is ten weeks old and living with her trainer.  I just
>>>>> didn't have the energy to owner train again.  It's an incredible amount of
>>>> time and energy.
>>>>> To teach a dog to stop at curbs is really easy.  I approach the curb
>>>>> with the dog, I stop at the curb where I want the dog to stop.  I
>>>>> prefer just a bit back from the edge, instead of having my toes hang
>>>>> over.  The dog should
>>>>> 
>>>>> stop with you because they have already been taught to walk nicely on
>>>>> leash.
>>>>> 
>>>>> When the dog stops, click and treat or tell him good boy and give pets
>>>>> or whatever method you use.  Rinse and repeat.  The dog will learn
>>>>> extremely quickly that he should stop at the curb to receive his
>>>>> accolades.  Then with
>>>>> 
>>>>> the dog in harness or on leash but a bit ahead, pay special attention
>>>>> to any
>>>>> 
>>>>> indication that the dog is slowing or stopping before you do.  Click
>>>>> and treat the moment he shows that he is stopping or hesitating at the
>>>> curb.
>>>>> rinse and repeat until the dog takes the initiative to stop before you
>>>>> stop.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Now take the show on the road and practice with other curbs.  Once
>>>>> that is mastered, add in blended curbs.  Teaching to stop at stairs is
>>>>> the next level of this training.  Just keep layering skills onto the
>>>>> basic building blocks the dog already knows.  It's like Legos!
>>>>> 
>>>>> There is no book about training your own guide dog currently
>>>>> available.  I am working on one.  I had hoped to have it out about two
>>>> years ago now.
>>>>> *sigh*   It is in the final revision phase.  I need to fix some
>>>> punctuation
>>>>> problems.  I've also been asked to include more about the actual how
>>>>> to parts of owner training.  I haven't decided if I want to do that or
>>>> not.
>>>>> Anyway when I do finally get the book done, I will be self publishing
>>>>> it as an eBook.  I'll let everyone know when that happens.  We'll have
>>>>> to have a party or something.  I've been working on this project for
>>>> forever!
>>>>> Julie
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
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