[nagdu] Moderator note regarding dog problems

Sun Dec 8 22:14:28 UTC 2013

Raven:
Again, thanks for the advice. My goal wasn't to get snappy. It was just 
the one liner "leave the dog alone" that bothered us really. Again, 
thanks everyone for the feedback, it really was appreciated.
On 12/8/2013 4:05 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote:
> Raven, and all,
> First, Minh and her boyfriend were the ones to ask for advice. so when they get a bit upset because of the advice given. It was because the advice given was extremely judgemental and commanding. Only Minh and her boy friend know the truth, no one on this list can know all of the details. what you think should be done, is not necessarily the right thing for them and their dogs. Also because your a dog owner, have had pet dogs in the past does not make you an expert. Remember they asked for advice, not judgement. I would also say, if you asked for help, give the same advice that you would want others to give you. And Lastly, think about how you write and type a message before you send it, those of us who are reading, can not know your voice and the emotion behind that. This is list for people to share and recieve help when they are in need, not for others to be judgemental and rude.
> If you have any issues with what I have stated please do email me offlist, and we can discuss this further.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Marsha drenth, NAGDU List Moderator
> Sent with my IPhone
>
>> On Dec 8, 2013, at 3:25 PM, Raven Tolliver <ravend729 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Ty,
>> There is no need to get snappy with the people who suggested leave the
>> dog alone. This is not bad advice, because let me tell you, a fearful
>> dog is, or can turn into, an aggressive dog. This is why it is
>> important to work at the dog's pace, and not at yours or Minh's.
>> Also, what you're saying is different from what Minh said.
>> First, this is about the relationship between your dog and your
>> girlfriend. Your dog does not like her. She has admitted that she has
>> behaved aggressively toward your dog, yelling, giving collar
>> corrections, and speaking sternly, when these things are obviously not
>> working and likely making the situation worse.
>> Second, raising your voice and yelling are 2 different things. I'm not
>> sure if you guys hang out/live together in an apartment or what, but
>> unless you are trying to get your dog's attention from across a field,
>> trust me, they can hear you perfectly fine. I never raise my voice to
>> call my dog, or any of the dogs I have trained. It is not necessary.
>> Bottom line: drop the yelling.
>> Third, you said that your dogs are comfortable enough to trust the
>> both of you. But Minh expressed the fact that your dog is not
>> comfortable around her. If the dog is avoiding her, not coming to her
>> at all unless she has a treat, hides from her, and yelps when she
>> plays with him, he does not trust her, he fears her. There could be
>> some underlying health issue as someone suggested; anything is
>> possible. But frankly, I believe the dog is afraid of her, and you
>> need to be very considerate of your dog's feelings, and Minh needs to
>> change the way she behaves toward your dog.
>> Now, training a dog to come when called is very hard. A surprising
>> number of people believe this is a basic, simple behavior/cue to
>> train, but it really isn't. There are two things that people do
>> frequently that hinder the dog's learning this behavior.
>> 1. People often punish their dogs when they come to them. I've seen it
>> at the park when a woman has to call her dog a bunch of times, and
>> when he finally comes to her, she is yelling at him and gripping his
>> collar up. Any kind of behavior like this lessens the chances of your
>> dog coming to you when you call him. If you have to call your dog
>> twenty-five times, you still don't punish them when they come to you.
>> You rain praise upon them as if they just ended world hunger so that
>> they associate coming to you with good things.
>> 2. Many people give in to their dogs, and after getting tired of
>> calling them, they just go to get/find the dog. When people do this,
>> they are communicating to their dog that the dog does not have to come
>> because their owner will go get them anyway.
>> You train that dog to come to you with a clicker and a toy, or a bag
>> of treats. Get your dog's attention with the toy, and of course, he
>> will come. Click! Give 'em the toy. Let 'em play for a minute or so,
>> then cue him to give the toy back with whatever cue you use--"drop it"
>> or the like. Repeat this several times. Make it a game, and make it
>> fun. Whenever he comes to you to get the toy, click! then give it to
>> 'em. Start introducing the cue "come," "here," or whatever. The moment
>> he comes to you, say "come," click! give the toy. repeat. Then do it
>> all without the toy. If your dog won't pay attention to you without
>> it, do more than just call his name--snap your fingers, tap your
>> thigh, whatever.
>> Many people do not want to do training sessions for something like
>> coming when called, but training sessions like this are what will
>> improve the reliability, and it's playtime! Who would say no to that?
>> After several days of training sessions, get Minh involved. If the dog
>> decides not to come to her, do not allow her to coax or cue him to do
>> so. If he is not willing to approach her, even if she has a toy, you
>> must be the one to reassure him. This might take several days or a
>> couple weeks. You might have to use treats to draw him close to her,
>> and to reward him if he interacts with her in a positive way at all.
>> Use the advice in my other email as well.
>> Good luck.
>> Raven
>>
>>> On 12/8/13, Littlefield, Tyler <tyler at tysdomain.com> wrote:
>>> Hello all:
>>> First, for the one-liner "leave the dog alone," thanks but no thanks for
>>> the advice. Minh was looking for some thought and feedback. For those of
>>> you who responded (raven, nicole et al), thanks also for your responses.
>>> I have a few comments I want to add because I'm interested in people's
>>> actual feedback regarding them.
>>>
>>> first, O'Mally and Minh got to know each other when Viva was not
>>> around--I had O'Mally before Minh got Viva. It seems that his behavior
>>> has changed a bit after Viva came around and she started getting
>>> attention from both of us. We do pretty much give them equal
>>> attention--sometimes O'Mally more than Viva or Viva more than O'Mally,
>>> but it sort of all equals out. I have no problem what-so-ever with Minh
>>> calling O'Mally or me calling Viva. I think they are both comfortable
>>> enough with us to trust us. I guess others prefer to keep their dogs
>>> separate, but this seems like mostly personal preference. Regardless,
>>> here's what I'm thinking with O'Mally.
>>>
>>> First, I understand yelling is a bit of an issue. Neither of us scream
>>> at either of our guides, but a raised voice sometimes seems like it's
>>> useful for getting attention. It's much preferable to grabbing their
>>> collar or something, so I'd like to use that if it works. It doesn't
>>> seem to scare them, it's just like a way to get them to actually focus
>>> or pay attention.
>>>
>>> Second, I think part of this is stemming from a bit of jealousy on both
>>> viva and O'mally's parts. I've noticed they tend to get irritated at
>>> each other sometimes, which I generally try to take care of, but I'm not
>>> really sure how to do much with that. I assume it'll happen regardless,
>>> but it seems to be a contributing factor.
>>>
>>> Finally, I appreciate all the advice given thus far on alternative ways
>>> for us to get O'mally to come when she calls. There have been times when
>>> I have to leave O'Mally with Minh or Viva has stayed with me. I believe
>>> if I am going to do that, O'mally needs to be comfortable with her and
>>> she needs to be able to call him, knowing 100% sure or at least as close
>>> to 100% as you can get with a dog that he will come. It may be that she
>>> actually really needs O'Mally to come to her, which leads me into
>>> another point. I have also noticed that sometimes when I call O'mally he
>>> thumps his tail at me rather than coming. I don't know if it is his way
>>> of saying "I'm right here," but I'd much prefer he just came. It's not
>>> all that often, but it happens sometimes. Any advice on how to work that
>>> out would be awesome.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --
>>> Take care,
>>> Ty
>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that
>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>>
>>>
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>>
>> -- 
>> Raven
>>
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-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.