[nagdu] clicker training and echolocation

Tue Feb 19 18:47:35 UTC 2013

Julie,

You go, girl! I love echolocation, especially in those wild and crazy 
outdoorsy settings, or in wide open indoor spaces... It can take a while 
to really get the hang of using the sound signals for direction and 
distance. I think once the brain starts processing the information 
better, then it comes together fast and gets easy and fun. I'm still 
working to improve there, but by now I mostly just have to think about 
it and practice some new refinement without the real work and difficulty 
I remember from when my central vision started to go.

So I'd been using the clicker for echolocation for probably a year or 
more with Mitzi before I clued in that I was even doing it... I caught 
myself clicking my cane while she was at the groomer and felt very, very 
silly! So I put the clicker away and was completely lost. Um... Oh. 
/lol/ I'm still trying to figure out how my dog is not completely 
screwed up, since I had clearly been doing everything wrong for quite a 
while... I had naively believed that she was so much perkier and happier 
on the job when I had the clicker in hand because she just needed a lot 
of cheerleading. In retrospect, I think it's because I'm just not such a 
pain in her backside when I'm getting the echolocation. The reward is 
that I move more smoothly and confidently and all, so she doesn't have 
to work so hard to get me where I need to go. When I don't have the 
clicker, she still knows what to do, but I started to realize that I 
just don't have the confidence to go along without hesitation or 
second-guessing... I still have to work on that sometimes, even though 
you would think I had figured out by now that I can just trust my dog 
whether I'm detecting what's around us or not. Sigh.

I've experimented with using the tongue click, but haven't really got 
the hang of it. Using the finger snap in conjunction with the white cane 
is useful. With Mitzi, that's my signal that I've had enough of the 
nonsense, I really mean it, shape up now, and so on. So I haven't tried 
cultivating that technique for when I'm working with her. Also, my right 
hand seems to do better with that, and I use her on my right. Also, 
since using the mechanical clicker so very, very wrongly hasn't 
completely messed her up, I haven't put a lot of effort into phasing 
that out. It's just too convenient. /smile/

I'm interested to see how that works for you with Monty. He sounds like 
an awfully smart dog, so you will probably find that he can figure it 
out surprisingly well. Like Mitzi, he knows what to do and how to make 
you happy while he's working. So maybe it's just that the basic tool for 
behavior capture is no longer what the experienced dogs need? I dunno. 
Let me know when you figure it out. /lol/

Tami

On 02/19/2013 05:54 AM, Julie J. wrote:
> Hello all!
>
> I am thinking of learning better echo location skills to help me be a
> better traveler, especially in outdoor off road settings.  I am
> specifically thinking of the technique called flash sonar taught by
> World Access for the Blind.   It's the tongue click technique where you
> listen to the echoes to get pretty detailed information about your
> environment.
>
> I understand that this technique has been met with skepticism in the
> past.  I understand that it isn't for everyone.  I feel though that it
> will give me added information about my environment, allowing me to
> explore and challenge what I previously thought would be difficult or
> impossible.
>
> I am not giving up working with a guide dog.  I plan to use this skill
> to compliment my use of cane and dog, not to replace them.   I am a good
> traveler now, but there are things I would like to do or do with more
> accuracy and ease than I am able to do now, camping, hiking, roller
> skating, archery, moving through airports, outdoor festivals, etc and
> perhaps riding a bike.
>
> So my main question is to those of you who use clicker training with
> your dogs, especially those who use the tongue click.  Am I going to
> confuse Monty with the echolocation clicks since he has been trained
> that is a marker signal that he has done something I wanted?   I'm
> thinking I can go back to the very first lesson of clicker training
> where you teach the dog that click means treat, except this time I will
> mix up tongue clicks with mechanical clicks only giving treats for the
> mechanical clicks to teach him that tongue clicks are no longer rewarded.
>
> I would also like to know if anyone has experience with using advanced
> echo location with your guide dog.  How has it helped you?  Have you
> encountered any problems?  Have you discovered you are able to do things
> you never thought possible?
>
> Thanks for any thoughts or ideas,
> Julie
>
>
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