[nagdu] clicker training

Tue Feb 19 19:59:58 UTC 2013

LMAO re Mitsy and the fake sitting. 
If you can, I want a video of that and then you clicking. That's just priceless!

I think what confused me with clicker is that much of the world has things in it that were designed without blind people in mind. Clicker training is no different. 
I think what surprised me is that if I'd really wanted to, I could have found a way to use this method. So I'm disappointed that I baught into the line that you have to see to be able to use clicker training. 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 2:46 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] clicker training

Rebecca,

Excellent question! So here is my stab:

Since clicker training was developed and refined by sighted trainers, 
then written about by sighted trainers, the cues the trainer responds to 
by clicking are all visual... Also, as training advances, the sighted 
trainer can get really refined captures of very small behavioral shifts, 
like the move of a foot or cock of a head. And they can advance the 
training from a distance very easily because they can see when the dog 
(or whatever) performs the behavior they want to capture.

So for a VI/blind trainer to adapt that can take some creative thinking. 
Well, and soaking in every word ever said by the likes of Ann and Julie 
and Rox and others. /lol/ I learned tons from Ann's VI clicker training 
list, since there was already a great group who really knew the theory 
and technique inside and out and had figured out how to adapt it for 
nonvisual use.

Even for a basic behavior like "sit," the nonvisual clicker-trainer 
needs to figure out how to know when to click to capture the instant 
when the dog's butt touches the ground. To start, you can have your hand 
on the dog's hind end. And in a nice, quiet room for a training session, 
you can learn to hear pretty well. Although Mitzi learned to fool me. 
She still thinks it's funny to do that sometimes, especially if she has 
an audience. And I will still fall for it, since I think I've heard her 
sit, so I click and treat and everybody laughs. Oh, very funny, Mitzi. /lol/

So when you start moving on to more refined behaviors, with more 
sophistication and with more distance between you and the dog, you have 
to figure out how to know when to click... Meanwhile, you've been 
reading all these books about the cool things you can do when you see 
the dog begin to... Oh. Maybe this isn't so for others, but I found I 
had to stop and re-translate everything mentally into a framework I 
could use every time I wanted to advance. Honestly, I still do 
sometimes. I want our dogs to be more civilized when they are out in the 
yard. Granted, fence barking is just an accepted part of life around 
here, it seems, but I would like to not have the worst dogs int he 
neighborhood... /lol/ Still, that's so self-rewarding that just getting 
their attention has been a chore, especially with all the extra 
excitement as the weather gets better. Also, they know perfectly well 
that I can't chase them down and catch them to prohibit barking... So 
I've had to figure out ways to reward their giving me their attention, 
and especially when they give me "quiet." Another reason I have an 
uphill battle as we come in to spring is because I've been spending most 
of the winter puzzling out how to do a distance capture of silence in a 
useful way... If I could see the fool beasts, I could click to capture 
those slight movements that would let me know I got the sound of my 
voice through the sounds of theirs... I could note an attention shift 
and capture silence when temptation first appears... And so on. I've 
done enough reading to know exactly how that's done and how it works... 
Just click when you see... /lol/

Anyway, progress is happening, with both dogs in tandem and 
individually, so I guess I've figured out how to manage this new 
clicker-training project, more or less. I tell myself that, every time I 
see signs of progress, because according to all those books I've read 
about how to do what I want to do easily, I'm doing most things wrong. 
/lol/ So I guess that means that I've needed to adjust my expectations 
of myself in order to begin to work out how to accomplish tasks using 
the clicker? Something like that.

I don't know if that's how Julie meant her statement about the 
distinction between how a sighted clicker trainer would do things vs. 
how a blind clicker trainer does it... It's just kinda how I've come to 
the same transition between all the cool stuff I've read and how I end 
up putting pieces of it into action. Or trying... /smile/

Tami

On 02/19/2013 07:01 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
> Julie,
> Can you explain clicker training the way a sighted person would do it, and the way a blind person would?
> Anybody else can take a stab at this too.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 9:06 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] clicker training
>
> Ann and Tami,
>
> Thank you!  I never know how detailed to get for the beginner.  I
> remember how terribly inadequate I felt when I first started, mainly
> because I was trying to use clicker the way sighted people do.  But
> anyway, I don't want to overwhelm people, but at the same time I want
> there to be enough info to provide a solid start.
>
> Tami, I don't necessarily think talking is a bad thing.  I just find
> that it doesn't work for me, at least not in the very first few sessions
> teaching a new skill.  As the dog gets better with the skill and I move
> into the random reinforcement phase I do definitely talk to the dog,
> providing verbal coaching if needed.  Monty understands an amazing array
> of words.  He still surprises me frequently with how much he understands.
>
> Just a couple of days ago I was looking for one of this toys, a new
> stuffed dog.  He usually doesn't get stuffed toys because he tears them
> up so fast, but he loves them.  Every once in a while I give him one,
> but check it frequently for tears. So I was looking for the toy and
> couldn't find it.  I asked him, "where is your dog?"  He went and got it
> out of his kennel and brought it to me.  I never taught him any of those
> words.  He could have picked up from the context of me looking that I
> wanted something, but how did he know which item?  Over the next couple
> of days I would ask him at random times to bring me his dog, he did each
> time. He has picked up a fair number of words in this way.
>
> I do talk to him in full sentences a fair bit.  I'm not expecting any
> specific results.  Mostly it's just me thinking out loud, but over the
> years he has  figured out more than I ever anticipated he would.
>
> Julie
>
>
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