[nagdu] clicker training

Tue Feb 19 21:25:49 UTC 2013

Rebecca,

I'll put that video on the to do list... Or not. Her little game is a 
crowd pleaser, but not kind to my ego! /lol/

Don't be too hard on yourself, though, for not bucking the accepted 
wisdom of back in the day... A lot of the currently available 
information floating around on the internet now was still in its 
infancy. I was lucky to find owner-trainers on this list, then 
directions to Ann's vi-clicker-training list, which was a godsend! 
Turned out there were quite a few owner-trainers scattered about, a lot 
them with tons of experience and knowledge and the ability to write well 
about it for the newbies. /smile/ It's easier to have confidence in the 
impossible thing you want to do when you find out there are others 
already doing it, especially when they will take time out to explain it 
to you and teach you how! /smile/

I do think it's cool that the programs are catching on to clicker 
training and more of a positive training/handling framework. Although I 
do wonder about gatherings of clicker-using guide dog users as more and 
more take to it. /lol/ Then again, clicker training is so much more 
common just in general, that I've managed to be clicking away in Petco 
while someone else was clicking away at their dog nearby. Teehee. The 
dogs seem to figure out which click is for them. But I still like the 
mental image of a crowded conference room full of cheerfully clicking 
guide dog handlers.

Tami

On 02/19/2013 11:59 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
> LMAO re Mitsy and the fake sitting.
> If you can, I want a video of that and then you clicking. That's just priceless!
>
> I think what confused me with clicker is that much of the world has things in it that were designed without blind people in mind. Clicker training is no different.
> I think what surprised me is that if I'd really wanted to, I could have found a way to use this method. So I'm disappointed that I baught into the line that you have to see to be able to use clicker training.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 2:46 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] clicker training
>
> Rebecca,
>
> Excellent question! So here is my stab:
>
> Since clicker training was developed and refined by sighted trainers,
> then written about by sighted trainers, the cues the trainer responds to
> by clicking are all visual... Also, as training advances, the sighted
> trainer can get really refined captures of very small behavioral shifts,
> like the move of a foot or cock of a head. And they can advance the
> training from a distance very easily because they can see when the dog
> (or whatever) performs the behavior they want to capture.
>
> So for a VI/blind trainer to adapt that can take some creative thinking.
> Well, and soaking in every word ever said by the likes of Ann and Julie
> and Rox and others. /lol/ I learned tons from Ann's VI clicker training
> list, since there was already a great group who really knew the theory
> and technique inside and out and had figured out how to adapt it for
> nonvisual use.
>
> Even for a basic behavior like "sit," the nonvisual clicker-trainer
> needs to figure out how to know when to click to capture the instant
> when the dog's butt touches the ground. To start, you can have your hand
> on the dog's hind end. And in a nice, quiet room for a training session,
> you can learn to hear pretty well. Although Mitzi learned to fool me.
> She still thinks it's funny to do that sometimes, especially if she has
> an audience. And I will still fall for it, since I think I've heard her
> sit, so I click and treat and everybody laughs. Oh, very funny, Mitzi. /lol/
>
> So when you start moving on to more refined behaviors, with more
> sophistication and with more distance between you and the dog, you have
> to figure out how to know when to click... Meanwhile, you've been
> reading all these books about the cool things you can do when you see
> the dog begin to... Oh. Maybe this isn't so for others, but I found I
> had to stop and re-translate everything mentally into a framework I
> could use every time I wanted to advance. Honestly, I still do
> sometimes. I want our dogs to be more civilized when they are out in the
> yard. Granted, fence barking is just an accepted part of life around
> here, it seems, but I would like to not have the worst dogs int he
> neighborhood... /lol/ Still, that's so self-rewarding that just getting
> their attention has been a chore, especially with all the extra
> excitement as the weather gets better. Also, they know perfectly well
> that I can't chase them down and catch them to prohibit barking... So
> I've had to figure out ways to reward their giving me their attention,
> and especially when they give me "quiet." Another reason I have an
> uphill battle as we come in to spring is because I've been spending most
> of the winter puzzling out how to do a distance capture of silence in a
> useful way... If I could see the fool beasts, I could click to capture
> those slight movements that would let me know I got the sound of my
> voice through the sounds of theirs... I could note an attention shift
> and capture silence when temptation first appears... And so on. I've
> done enough reading to know exactly how that's done and how it works...
> Just click when you see... /lol/
>
> Anyway, progress is happening, with both dogs in tandem and
> individually, so I guess I've figured out how to manage this new
> clicker-training project, more or less. I tell myself that, every time I
> see signs of progress, because according to all those books I've read
> about how to do what I want to do easily, I'm doing most things wrong.
> /lol/ So I guess that means that I've needed to adjust my expectations
> of myself in order to begin to work out how to accomplish tasks using
> the clicker? Something like that.
>
> I don't know if that's how Julie meant her statement about the
> distinction between how a sighted clicker trainer would do things vs.
> how a blind clicker trainer does it... It's just kinda how I've come to
> the same transition between all the cool stuff I've read and how I end
> up putting pieces of it into action. Or trying... /smile/
>
> Tami
>
>
> On 02/19/2013 07:01 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
>> Julie,
>> Can you explain clicker training the way a sighted person would do it, and the way a blind person would?
>> Anybody else can take a stab at this too.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 9:06 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] clicker training
>>
>> Ann and Tami,
>>
>> Thank you!  I never know how detailed to get for the beginner.  I
>> remember how terribly inadequate I felt when I first started, mainly
>> because I was trying to use clicker the way sighted people do.  But
>> anyway, I don't want to overwhelm people, but at the same time I want
>> there to be enough info to provide a solid start.
>>
>> Tami, I don't necessarily think talking is a bad thing.  I just find
>> that it doesn't work for me, at least not in the very first few sessions
>> teaching a new skill.  As the dog gets better with the skill and I move
>> into the random reinforcement phase I do definitely talk to the dog,
>> providing verbal coaching if needed.  Monty understands an amazing array
>> of words.  He still surprises me frequently with how much he understands.
>>
>> Just a couple of days ago I was looking for one of this toys, a new
>> stuffed dog.  He usually doesn't get stuffed toys because he tears them
>> up so fast, but he loves them.  Every once in a while I give him one,
>> but check it frequently for tears. So I was looking for the toy and
>> couldn't find it.  I asked him, "where is your dog?"  He went and got it
>> out of his kennel and brought it to me.  I never taught him any of those
>> words.  He could have picked up from the context of me looking that I
>> wanted something, but how did he know which item?  Over the next couple
>> of days I would ask him at random times to bring me his dog, he did each
>> time. He has picked up a fair number of words in this way.
>>
>> I do talk to him in full sentences a fair bit.  I'm not expecting any
>> specific results.  Mostly it's just me thinking out loud, but over the
>> years he has  figured out more than I ever anticipated he would.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%40tasc.com
>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any attachments or files transmitted with it (collectively, the "Message") are intended only for the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, proprietary and/or prohibited from disclosure by law or contract. If you are not the intended recipient: (a) please do not read, copy or retransmit the Message; (b) permanently delete and/or destroy all electronic and hard copies of the Message; (c) notify us by return email; and (d) you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of the Message is strictly prohibited.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%40tasc.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.com
>