[nagdu] The scientific method WAS Re: Hi there

Larry D. Keeler lkeeler at comcast.net
Wed Jan 9 02:47:01 UTC 2013


And, if you use that method, you have t6o consider the psychological 
variances between you and dog!  Also, you, and Dog!  What fun! Maybe run a T 
test before starting or put you and your dog in a couple of Skinner boxes 
first to test behavior!  Tami, couldn't resist!  And iether you or a poodle 
in a Skinner box makes for a really interesting vission!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tami Jarvis" <tami at poodlemutt.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 4:55 PM
Subject: [nagdu] The scientific method WAS Re: Hi there


> Rebecca,
>
> Well, I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek using the word "scientific." 
> Partly because I realize how much luck and serendipity played a part back 
> when I ended up somehow with a Mitzi poodle. I really had been doing 
> research and weighing pros and cons of this and that before I started 
> calling around that day. So it wasn't really as spur-of-the-moment a 
> decision as I make it sound sometimes. Rationally, I was still wavering 
> about the dog notion, especially owner-training my first guide dog; 
> somewhere deep inside, I'm pretty sure I'd decided awhile before that. If 
> that makes sense. And I pretty much believed I knew enough to be doing 
> this thing, as much as I could know at that point. Since the resulting 
> poodle child is now a pretty nifty guide dog and really very much what I 
> was hoping to come out with, I musta known something about something... Or 
> was I just lucky? /lol/
>
> Six years later, I have learned enough more to look back and see how much 
> I *didn't* know then about any of it. Heavens! What was I thinking? And so 
> on. /lol/
>
> So looking ahead to the upcoming quest for that next ideal (ha!) prospect, 
> I'm factoring in a lot of new information, ideas about how to weight the 
> odds of success, etc., etc. So that seems much more satisfyingly 
> "scientific" to me. Since this is still going on in my imagination, it 
> works really well that way, too! However, a few short years from now, I 
> will be looking back over how I ended up with my new young guide dog 
> wondering what the heck actually happened. /lol/ There is a certain very 
> *unscientific* mystery factor involved in partnering up with another 
> living being, starting with the final choice of which one to bring home... 
> More like dating, I guess, than buying a new computer. In both cases, you 
> have a clear list of specs to begin with and those are what you start 
> looking for. With a computer, you find the best price for those specs and 
> there you are. With dates or puppies... You're still going on your gut or 
> something in predicting if what you're gonna get is actually what you 
> think you are or what you want.
>
> Very unsatisfyingly unscientific! /lol/
>
> Tami
>
> On 01/08/2013 11:37 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
>> Tami,
>> This is extremely interesting. I'm wondering why you plan to be more 
>> scientiffic in your next dog especially if this process worked well for 
>> you now?
>> Why change the process if what you have works?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 1:55 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hi there
>>
>> Rebecca,
>>
>> Those are all good questions, so hard to answer.
>>
>> With Mitzi, I lucked out. I had decided to get a cat, so I called poodle
>> breeders and ended up with the one I have now. I was talking about
>> making payments on a different pup when I started blathering about how I
>> might just train it to be a guide dog if it had the right stuff. The
>> breeder listened patiently while I rattled on, then finally interrupted
>> and said, "I have the dog for you." She started going on about a small
>> black female, when I had wanted a large black male or the large red male
>> we were discussing... But my intuition and noting the actual size of my
>> apartment told me to consider it. I was going to pay half-price for this
>> small black female, which would have been $500 at the time. But the
>> breeder made a gift of the dog, which was great! I was able to use that
>> money to have her spayed and so forth, so it worked out. And she is just
>> the right dog for me! What that says about me, I try not to wonder, but
>> there it is.
>>
>> In considering what to do about my next, I plan to go about things more
>> scientifically. That means I will need to investigate sources, including
>> finding a breeder. I will be looking at rescues and the like, but... For
>> a guide dog prospect, I want to know as much as possible about breeding,
>> history, etc. Our other dog will always be a rescue, but for a guide...
>> Unless I get real lucky at a rescue, I will tend towards a breeder.
>>
>> So the first step is to evaluate the breeder, of course. What traits do
>> they breed for? Show? Temperament? How clean are their bloodlines? No
>> line breeding, thank you! How healthy are their dogs? What conditions
>> are they kept in? Etc. Do I know anybody with dogs from that breeder or
>> anyone who knows the dogs? That's where my vet niece comes in handy. She
>> knows a couple of dobie breeders with great dogs that produce great
>> pups, so there's a good lead.
>>
>> Price? That is set by the market, I guess. Mitzi was less expensive
>> because she is small and black, where the big reds and other colors are
>> more in fashion. I haven't really investigated the dobie market yet,
>> because it might make me cry. But I am doing everything I can to save up.
>>
>> Private trainers are indeed expensive! The exact cost would depend on
>> the market in your area. Unless something drastic changes for me, I'll
>> be going the do-it-myself route again. If we are able to stick to our
>> plans for DD's retirement, where I freelance instead of getting
>> something full time working for The Man, I will have the time to put
>> into it. And we have good beginning training grounds here. For the more
>> advanced city slicker stuff, we plan to travel and will be around big
>> city challenges to work on. So it should be doable... Should! /lol/
>>
>> So as an owner-trainer, you pay your own vet bills all the way,
>> including spay/neuter, all vaccinations and boosters, anything else that
>> comes up. You buy the food all the way, buy your own training equipment
>> and supplies. Fortunately, I now have a good stock of leashes, leading
>> harnesses, even a small guide dog harness for early training with that.
>> Assuming I do get the right dobie or another poodle, I will be able to
>> use one of Mitzi's Pawpower harnesses for much of the training.
>> Fortunately, the Pawpower harnesses are not super expensive, so I won't
>> be stuck trying to make my own. /lol/ I know a lot of owner-trainers who
>> end up doing that, but I ain't the crafty sort.
>>
>> Training treats and clickers are mandatory for me, but I'm used to that
>> expense anyway. A trained dog doesn't require as many treats as a
>> trainee, so that expense is going up just with  more advanced training
>> for DD's mutt puppy. But it's not that huge....
>>
>> For the other specialized training needs for a guide dog prospect, you
>> can get really creative and connect with other owner-trainers who are
>> more creative! Playgrounds are great places to teach agility and body
>> awareness, stair climbing and so forth as the young dog grows. With
>> Mitzi, I had to hire cabs to work on riding in cars, and a couple of
>> times got to pay the sick fee. The cabbies would insist I didn't have
>> to, but... Fortunately, she got over being car sick once riding in the
>> car wasn't so super exciting. /smile/ Now I have a vehicle and private
>> driver, along with two experienced traveling dogs to help with that
>> training. /smile/
>>
>> Um... What else? Mostly, I'm hoping again to use my time and patience
>> and whatever I can dredge up in the way of ingenuity to get the job
>> done. /smile/
>>
>> The spouse will have to be involved in the search, at least as
>> transportation. And he will just have to accept what I get! So there!
>> /lol/ When we first met, he couldn't understand why I would want to
>> owner-train instead of going through a program. He's been around the
>> scene longer now and learned a lot... So he's pro owner-training. Yay!
>>
>> Anyway, that's my take on the whole thing. Don't know how much I
>> actually answered, but there are no set or pat answers, so there you
>> have it. /smile/
>>
>> Tami
>>
>> On 12/19/2012 09:53 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
>>> Julie, Tami and others,
>>> I'm curious how much you pay for the breeding, training and the like?
>>> I can understand training your own dog, but I've always heard that a 
>>> private trainer was expensive. Julie, how did you find yours? What will 
>>> happen if you tell him or her to train the dog to do x, and the dog 
>>> doesn't learn this skill? Is the trainer at fault and how do you know if 
>>> the trainer did something that went against your instructions or if the 
>>> dog just can't or won't learn the skill.
>>>
>>> Where does the time to find the right breeder and trainer come from? Do 
>>> you go as a family to find these people, or do you do it on your own and 
>>> then tell the spouse and kids what you're doing?
>>> What is the trainer's deliverable exactly?
>>>
>>> Do you have money set aside for dog stuff if this is as expensive as I 
>>> think it may be?
>>> Very curious to understand this.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:47 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hi there
>>>
>>> Julie,
>>>
>>> Wow! You *are* getting an early start! /smile/ I'm planning to wait
>>> another year, at least, to get a younger pup, so Mitzi will be 7 or more
>>> then... I'm like you, though. I go back and forth a lot at this point,
>>> since I don't absolutely have to make the decision now. /smile/
>>>
>>> I'll be looking forward to hearing about your dobie pick! I haven't
>>> found a breeder yet that I'm happy with, but I have feelers out.
>>> Starting next summer or thereabouts, I'm going to need to get serious, 
>>> huh?
>>>
>>> It's confusing for me, since poodles are supposed to live much longer
>>> than other large breed dogs -- 14 to 20! So I don't want to be too
>>> conservative in planning for Mitzi's retirement. What to do? What to do?
>>> /lol/
>>>
>>> Tami
>>>
>>> On 12/19/2012 05:39 AM, Julie J. wrote:
>>>> Monty is a Boxer and Lab mix.  Belle is a lab and who knows what mix.
>>>> Tia was a Coonhound.  All have had their strengths and weaknesses.  I
>>>> have never seen a dog so aware of overhead obstacles as Miss Tia.  I
>>>> guess being bred to run raccoons up a tree caused her to be more aware
>>>> of the concept of up.  I wouldn't choose another Coonhound though.
>>>> Mostly I trained her because she was there and I wanted to see if I
>>>> could do it.
>>>>
>>>> My next dog will most likely be a Doberman, which is actually the breed
>>>> I have been looking for from the beginning.  I've been saving up and I
>>>> think I can find one this time.  a Boxer is also a consideration, but
>>>> I'm not finding a breeder in the Midwest that I'm satisfied with.  I'm
>>>> still looking though.
>>>>
>>>> Previously my dogs have come from shelters.  this time I'm strongly
>>>> leaning toward going with a breeder, a young puppy and I'm having a
>>>> private trainer raise the puppy and do the initial guide training. 
>>>> After
>>>> a lot of soul searching and changing my mind two dozen times I have
>>>> decided to go the route of private trainer.  I simply do not have the
>>>> time or energy to train another guide dog, but I'm not 100% comfortable
>>>> with the offerings of any of the available programs.  I'm very excited
>>>> about this arrangement because I don't have to put in the time and
>>>> effort, but I still get to choose all the important things to me
>>>> throughout the process.
>>>>
>>>> As of right now the puppy will be born sometime in the spring.  He will
>>>> go to the trainer in the summer, where he will stay for somewhere in 
>>>> the
>>>> neighborhood of 18 to 24 months.  then probably I'll travel there to
>>>> spend a week or so with the dog and trainer learning what I need to 
>>>> know
>>>> before I bring the dog home.  If all goes well I'll have my next dog in
>>>> a little over two years.  Monty will be about 7.5 then, which might be 
>>>> a
>>>> bit young for him to retire.  However I'm not sure exactly when he'll
>>>> start slowing down or showing signs of age related health issues, so 
>>>> I'm
>>>> planning the best I can and will probably alternate between the two 
>>>> dogs
>>>> to make the transition easier for both.
>>>>
>>>> And that is more than you asked, but there you go!
>>>> Julie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/18/2012 10:37 PM, Laurel wrote:
>>>>> Hey Debbie and all! Hope y'all are well, I've been so quiet on here
>>>>> because I've had a crazy semester at college, but that's another post
>>>>> under another subject line. What kind of dog is Leone, I can't
>>>>> remember at the moment.
>>>>> Also, as far as dog breeds go, those of you who owner train, what is
>>>>> y'all's breed preference? What kind of dog do you all have, and what
>>>>> are your favorite breeds to train?
>>>>> Laurel and Stockard
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/18/12, Debbie Cole<debbieanne1124 at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>>> ***waves her yellow lab's tail at Laurel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Debbie and Leone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/18/12, Laurel<laurel.stockard at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>>>> Ok y'all, how many poodles do we have, I don't know. I also wanna 
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> how many shepherds we have etc. I have a yellow lab. It would be 
>>>>>>> cool
>>>>>>> also to know which are the most represented schools on here, Pilot,
>>>>>>> GDB, TSE etc. I'm from Guide Dogs for the Blind. This could be sort 
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> fun. :)
>>>>>>> Laurel and Stockard, yellow lab from GDB
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 12/18/12, consuelo johnson<consuelo.johnson050 at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>>>>> I'm working a davenman pitcher and she is a wonderful guide.  I
>>>>>>>> just got
>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>> about a week ago so we are a new team right now.
>>>>>>>> consuelo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
>>>>>>>> Pitzer
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 7:21 PM
>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hi there
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> i have a black lab
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 12/18/12, John Russo<johnnyrusso at windstream.net>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi members,
>>>>>>>>> How many guide dog users have Doberman Pinchers?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of d m 
>>>>>>>>> gina
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 5:49 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Hi there
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now that we know there are several puddles out there giggle, How 
>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>> black labs or even how many yellow labs are out there.
>>>>>>>>> On this list.
>>>>>>>>> Just thought I would have fun.
>>>>>>>>> Tammy your address isn't coming into my address book, can you send 
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> to me please?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> --Dar
>>>>>>>>> skype: dmgina23
>>>>>>>>>      FB: dmgina
>>>>>>>>> www.twitter.com/dmgina
>>>>>>>>> every saint has a past
>>>>>>>>> every sinner has a future
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/johnnyrusso%40windstream.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rolosgirl%40gmail.c
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> om
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/consuelo.johnson050%40gma
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/laurel.stockard%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/debbieanne1124%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/laurel.stockard%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----
>>>>> No virus found in this message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2637/5469 - Release Date: 
>>>>> 12/18/12
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nagdu:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nagdu:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%40tasc.com
>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any attachments or files 
>>> transmitted with it (collectively, the "Message") are intended only for 
>>> the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, 
>>> proprietary and/or prohibited from disclosure by law or contract. If you 
>>> are not the intended recipient: (a) please do not read, copy or 
>>> retransmit the Message; (b) permanently delete and/or destroy all 
>>> electronic and hard copies of the Message; (c) notify us by return 
>>> email; and (d) you are hereby notified that any dissemination, 
>>> distribution or copying of the Message is strictly prohibited.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nagdu:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%40tasc.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lkeeler%40comcast.net 





More information about the NAGDU mailing list