[nagdu] The scientific method WAS Re: Hi there

Tami Jarvis tami at poodlemutt.com
Tue Jan 8 21:55:14 UTC 2013


Rebecca,

Well, I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek using the word "scientific." 
Partly because I realize how much luck and serendipity played a part 
back when I ended up somehow with a Mitzi poodle. I really had been 
doing research and weighing pros and cons of this and that before I 
started calling around that day. So it wasn't really as 
spur-of-the-moment a decision as I make it sound sometimes. Rationally, 
I was still wavering about the dog notion, especially owner-training my 
first guide dog; somewhere deep inside, I'm pretty sure I'd decided 
awhile before that. If that makes sense. And I pretty much believed I 
knew enough to be doing this thing, as much as I could know at that 
point. Since the resulting poodle child is now a pretty nifty guide dog 
and really very much what I was hoping to come out with, I musta known 
something about something... Or was I just lucky? /lol/

Six years later, I have learned enough more to look back and see how 
much I *didn't* know then about any of it. Heavens! What was I thinking? 
And so on. /lol/

So looking ahead to the upcoming quest for that next ideal (ha!) 
prospect, I'm factoring in a lot of new information, ideas about how to 
weight the odds of success, etc., etc. So that seems much more 
satisfyingly "scientific" to me. Since this is still going on in my 
imagination, it works really well that way, too! However, a few short 
years from now, I will be looking back over how I ended up with my new 
young guide dog wondering what the heck actually happened. /lol/ There 
is a certain very *unscientific* mystery factor involved in partnering 
up with another living being, starting with the final choice of which 
one to bring home... More like dating, I guess, than buying a new 
computer. In both cases, you have a clear list of specs to begin with 
and those are what you start looking for. With a computer, you find the 
best price for those specs and there you are. With dates or puppies... 
You're still going on your gut or something in predicting if what you're 
gonna get is actually what you think you are or what you want.

Very unsatisfyingly unscientific! /lol/

Tami

On 01/08/2013 11:37 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
> 	Tami,
> This is extremely interesting. I'm wondering why you plan to be more scientiffic in your next dog especially if this process worked well for you now?
> Why change the process if what you have works?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 1:55 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hi there
>
> Rebecca,
>
> Those are all good questions, so hard to answer.
>
> With Mitzi, I lucked out. I had decided to get a cat, so I called poodle
> breeders and ended up with the one I have now. I was talking about
> making payments on a different pup when I started blathering about how I
> might just train it to be a guide dog if it had the right stuff. The
> breeder listened patiently while I rattled on, then finally interrupted
> and said, "I have the dog for you." She started going on about a small
> black female, when I had wanted a large black male or the large red male
> we were discussing... But my intuition and noting the actual size of my
> apartment told me to consider it. I was going to pay half-price for this
> small black female, which would have been $500 at the time. But the
> breeder made a gift of the dog, which was great! I was able to use that
> money to have her spayed and so forth, so it worked out. And she is just
> the right dog for me! What that says about me, I try not to wonder, but
> there it is.
>
> In considering what to do about my next, I plan to go about things more
> scientifically. That means I will need to investigate sources, including
> finding a breeder. I will be looking at rescues and the like, but... For
> a guide dog prospect, I want to know as much as possible about breeding,
> history, etc. Our other dog will always be a rescue, but for a guide...
> Unless I get real lucky at a rescue, I will tend towards a breeder.
>
> So the first step is to evaluate the breeder, of course. What traits do
> they breed for? Show? Temperament? How clean are their bloodlines? No
> line breeding, thank you! How healthy are their dogs? What conditions
> are they kept in? Etc. Do I know anybody with dogs from that breeder or
> anyone who knows the dogs? That's where my vet niece comes in handy. She
> knows a couple of dobie breeders with great dogs that produce great
> pups, so there's a good lead.
>
> Price? That is set by the market, I guess. Mitzi was less expensive
> because she is small and black, where the big reds and other colors are
> more in fashion. I haven't really investigated the dobie market yet,
> because it might make me cry. But I am doing everything I can to save up.
>
> Private trainers are indeed expensive! The exact cost would depend on
> the market in your area. Unless something drastic changes for me, I'll
> be going the do-it-myself route again. If we are able to stick to our
> plans for DD's retirement, where I freelance instead of getting
> something full time working for The Man, I will have the time to put
> into it. And we have good beginning training grounds here. For the more
> advanced city slicker stuff, we plan to travel and will be around big
> city challenges to work on. So it should be doable... Should! /lol/
>
> So as an owner-trainer, you pay your own vet bills all the way,
> including spay/neuter, all vaccinations and boosters, anything else that
> comes up. You buy the food all the way, buy your own training equipment
> and supplies. Fortunately, I now have a good stock of leashes, leading
> harnesses, even a small guide dog harness for early training with that.
> Assuming I do get the right dobie or another poodle, I will be able to
> use one of Mitzi's Pawpower harnesses for much of the training.
> Fortunately, the Pawpower harnesses are not super expensive, so I won't
> be stuck trying to make my own. /lol/ I know a lot of owner-trainers who
> end up doing that, but I ain't the crafty sort.
>
> Training treats and clickers are mandatory for me, but I'm used to that
> expense anyway. A trained dog doesn't require as many treats as a
> trainee, so that expense is going up just with  more advanced training
> for DD's mutt puppy. But it's not that huge....
>
> For the other specialized training needs for a guide dog prospect, you
> can get really creative and connect with other owner-trainers who are
> more creative! Playgrounds are great places to teach agility and body
> awareness, stair climbing and so forth as the young dog grows. With
> Mitzi, I had to hire cabs to work on riding in cars, and a couple of
> times got to pay the sick fee. The cabbies would insist I didn't have
> to, but... Fortunately, she got over being car sick once riding in the
> car wasn't so super exciting. /smile/ Now I have a vehicle and private
> driver, along with two experienced traveling dogs to help with that
> training. /smile/
>
> Um... What else? Mostly, I'm hoping again to use my time and patience
> and whatever I can dredge up in the way of ingenuity to get the job
> done. /smile/
>
> The spouse will have to be involved in the search, at least as
> transportation. And he will just have to accept what I get! So there!
> /lol/ When we first met, he couldn't understand why I would want to
> owner-train instead of going through a program. He's been around the
> scene longer now and learned a lot... So he's pro owner-training. Yay!
>
> Anyway, that's my take on the whole thing. Don't know how much I
> actually answered, but there are no set or pat answers, so there you
> have it. /smile/
>
> Tami
>
> On 12/19/2012 09:53 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
>> Julie, Tami and others,
>> I'm curious how much you pay for the breeding, training and the like?
>> I can understand training your own dog, but I've always heard that a private trainer was expensive. Julie, how did you find yours? What will happen if you tell him or her to train the dog to do x, and the dog doesn't learn this skill? Is the trainer at fault and how do you know if the trainer did something that went against your instructions or if the dog just can't or won't learn the skill.
>>
>> Where does the time to find the right breeder and trainer come from? Do you go as a family to find these people, or do you do it on your own and then tell the spouse and kids what you're doing?
>> What is the trainer's deliverable exactly?
>>
>> Do you have money set aside for dog stuff if this is as expensive as I think it may be?
>> Very curious to understand this.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:47 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hi there
>>
>> Julie,
>>
>> Wow! You *are* getting an early start! /smile/ I'm planning to wait
>> another year, at least, to get a younger pup, so Mitzi will be 7 or more
>> then... I'm like you, though. I go back and forth a lot at this point,
>> since I don't absolutely have to make the decision now. /smile/
>>
>> I'll be looking forward to hearing about your dobie pick! I haven't
>> found a breeder yet that I'm happy with, but I have feelers out.
>> Starting next summer or thereabouts, I'm going to need to get serious, huh?
>>
>> It's confusing for me, since poodles are supposed to live much longer
>> than other large breed dogs -- 14 to 20! So I don't want to be too
>> conservative in planning for Mitzi's retirement. What to do? What to do?
>> /lol/
>>
>> Tami
>>
>> On 12/19/2012 05:39 AM, Julie J. wrote:
>>> Monty is a Boxer and Lab mix.  Belle is a lab and who knows what mix.
>>> Tia was a Coonhound.  All have had their strengths and weaknesses.  I
>>> have never seen a dog so aware of overhead obstacles as Miss Tia.  I
>>> guess being bred to run raccoons up a tree caused her to be more aware
>>> of the concept of up.  I wouldn't choose another Coonhound though.
>>> Mostly I trained her because she was there and I wanted to see if I
>>> could do it.
>>>
>>> My next dog will most likely be a Doberman, which is actually the breed
>>> I have been looking for from the beginning.  I've been saving up and I
>>> think I can find one this time.  a Boxer is also a consideration, but
>>> I'm not finding a breeder in the Midwest that I'm satisfied with.  I'm
>>> still looking though.
>>>
>>> Previously my dogs have come from shelters.  this time I'm strongly
>>> leaning toward going with a breeder, a young puppy and I'm having a
>>> private trainer raise the puppy and do the initial guide training. After
>>> a lot of soul searching and changing my mind two dozen times I have
>>> decided to go the route of private trainer.  I simply do not have the
>>> time or energy to train another guide dog, but I'm not 100% comfortable
>>> with the offerings of any of the available programs.  I'm very excited
>>> about this arrangement because I don't have to put in the time and
>>> effort, but I still get to choose all the important things to me
>>> throughout the process.
>>>
>>> As of right now the puppy will be born sometime in the spring.  He will
>>> go to the trainer in the summer, where he will stay for somewhere in the
>>> neighborhood of 18 to 24 months.  then probably I'll travel there to
>>> spend a week or so with the dog and trainer learning what I need to know
>>> before I bring the dog home.  If all goes well I'll have my next dog in
>>> a little over two years.  Monty will be about 7.5 then, which might be a
>>> bit young for him to retire.  However I'm not sure exactly when he'll
>>> start slowing down or showing signs of age related health issues, so I'm
>>> planning the best I can and will probably alternate between the two dogs
>>> to make the transition easier for both.
>>>
>>> And that is more than you asked, but there you go!
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/18/2012 10:37 PM, Laurel wrote:
>>>> Hey Debbie and all! Hope y'all are well, I've been so quiet on here
>>>> because I've had a crazy semester at college, but that's another post
>>>> under another subject line. What kind of dog is Leone, I can't
>>>> remember at the moment.
>>>> Also, as far as dog breeds go, those of you who owner train, what is
>>>> y'all's breed preference? What kind of dog do you all have, and what
>>>> are your favorite breeds to train?
>>>> Laurel and Stockard
>>>>
>>>> On 12/18/12, Debbie Cole<debbieanne1124 at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>> ***waves her yellow lab's tail at Laurel.
>>>>>
>>>>> Debbie and Leone
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/18/12, Laurel<laurel.stockard at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>>> Ok y'all, how many poodles do we have, I don't know. I also wanna know
>>>>>> how many shepherds we have etc. I have a yellow lab. It would be cool
>>>>>> also to know which are the most represented schools on here, Pilot,
>>>>>> GDB, TSE etc. I'm from Guide Dogs for the Blind. This could be sort of
>>>>>> fun. :)
>>>>>> Laurel and Stockard, yellow lab from GDB
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/18/12, consuelo johnson<consuelo.johnson050 at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>>>> I'm working a davenman pitcher and she is a wonderful guide.  I
>>>>>>> just got
>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>> about a week ago so we are a new team right now.
>>>>>>> consuelo
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
>>>>>>> Pitzer
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 7:21 PM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hi there
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> i have a black lab
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 12/18/12, John Russo<johnnyrusso at windstream.net>  wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi members,
>>>>>>>> How many guide dog users have Doberman Pinchers?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of d m gina
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 5:49 PM
>>>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Hi there
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now that we know there are several puddles out there giggle, How many
>>>>>>>> black labs or even how many yellow labs are out there.
>>>>>>>> On this list.
>>>>>>>> Just thought I would have fun.
>>>>>>>> Tammy your address isn't coming into my address book, can you send it
>>>>>>>> to me please?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> --Dar
>>>>>>>> skype: dmgina23
>>>>>>>>      FB: dmgina
>>>>>>>> www.twitter.com/dmgina
>>>>>>>> every saint has a past
>>>>>>>> every sinner has a future
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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