[nagdu] Intelligent disobedience

Chasity Jackson chasityvanda at charter.net
Wed Jan 30 23:01:28 UTC 2013


Oh, that was interesting to learn about DM Gina. I have taught my dog to go 
slow on ice too.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "d m gina" <dmgina at samobile.net>
To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Intelligent disobedience


> Steps with the rail on the left.
> He knows I need a rail besides him to get down the steps.
> Curbs when we come to a curb he taught himself to go in front of me with 
> his head on my left leg to let me know we are at a curb or a set of steps.
> He is slowing down for ice.
> I taught him this, walking to the dumpster.
> If my shoe would slide, he would get a small pull on the leash.
> This started telling him that we are needing to go slowly on ice.
> this is in the mornings when I take his treasures to the dumster.
> Original message:
>> What kind of places have you all used to test your dog's level of
>> intelligent disobedience?
>
>> This topic has made me reflect on a past experience I had with my first
>> guide dog Vanda. We were on the college campus, and I was unaware of the
>> fact that they had dug up the pavement and there was a huge thirty foot 
>> deep
>> hole there. They were doing some construction outside. I was trying to 
>> cross
>> that driveway and she wouldn't let me, she was very insistant on it too. 
>> She
>> threw her body in front of me and then spun to the right, as the hole was 
>> to
>> our left. I had never seen her so insistant on getting her way and doing 
>> it
>> the way she wanted, and now I know why.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 2:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Intelligent disobedience
>
>
>>> I think intelligent disobedience is more closely related to confidence
>>> level than anything else.  A dog basically needs to have the emotional
>>> ability to say no without crumbling.
>
>>> Monty is what I'd call very high on the obedience chart.  He very much
>>> wants to please his people and will go above and beyond to accomplish
>>> this.  He is also decently high on the confidence scale.  If I want to 
>>> do
>>> something dumb he will stick to his decision even after repeated 
>>> attempts
>>> to get him to do things my way.  It doesn't seem to bother him too much 
>>> as
>>> long as I don't correct or raise my voice.  So I've learned when we are
>>> standing on the corner and he is refusing to go some particular way I 
>>> need
>>> to offer some different options until we can agree on one.
>
>>> Belle is not a very obedient dog and is much lower in confidence.  With
>>> her I got one chance to figure it out.  If she stopped and I didn't take
>>> enough time to figure out what was going on and told her to continue, 
>>> she
>>> would.  sometimes that was not so great for me.  I don't know that she's 
>>> a
>>> good example though.  She was never really cut out to be a guide dog.
>
>>> Tia, my first dog from way back when, was obedient when it suited her, 
>>> but
>>> was very confident.  She very much wanted to do things her way all the
>>> time.  If I suggested some dumb thing she'd wait ever so patiently until 
>>> I
>>> saw things her way.  She never gave in to my stupidity.
>
>>> It's an interesting discussion.  Thanks for bringing it up.
>>> Julie
>
>>> On 1/30/2013 2:16 PM, Tami Jarvis wrote:
>>>> Tracy,
>
>>>> That's something I've wondered about off and on about guide dogs in
>>>> general. They're all trained in intelligent disobedience... But how
>>>> stubborn is the average guide dog about applying that training?
>
>>>> Mitzi is stubborn and has developed a number of ways of letting me
>>>> know -- correction: trying to let me know -- that I am being a complete
>>>> dumb head and would get myself hurt or done in if she didn't go to
>>>> extraordinary lengths to protect me from myself. /lol/ She is also very
>>>> good at saying, "I told you so," once I figure it out.
>
>>>> So now I'm really spoiled, of course. But as Mitzi moves toward the
>>>> 7-year mark, I do find myself wondering about that trait of hers. I 
>>>> think
>>>> the major reason I want to do some basic guide dog training with DD's 
>>>> pup
>>>> Zay is because she is naturally a more obedient type of dog, in the
>>>> classical concept of obedience. Very eager to please, etc., etc. So I
>>>> want to find out, using very safe places, if she can take the basic
>>>> skills and develop some general responsibility, then bump it up to the
>>>> next level and refuse to let me walk into the street or something. 
>>>> Hm...
>
>>>> My secret fear for the future is that I will inadvertently end up with 
>>>> a
>>>> guide dog that does what I tell it to, just because I tell it to...
>>>> Probably because of all the people who take it upon themselves to
>>>> question Mitzi's fitness (or even ask smart questions in a sensible 
>>>> way)
>>>> as a guide, since they thought guide dogs are supposed to be totally
>>>> obedient. /lol/ I used to get really annoyed by that sort of thing, but
>>>> now I just stare at whoever might bring it up these days in horror, 
>>>> then
>>>> burst out laughing. OMG! I would be soooo doomed! /lol/
>
>>>> Tami
>
>>>> On 01/30/2013 10:02 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>>>>> Sometimes I get mixed up about exactly where I am, and tell Ben to do
>>>>> something dumb, like turn to cross the street before we get to the
>>>>> crosswalk.  He says No, and I insist, and he insists back, and, after 
>>>>> 2
>>>>> or 3 times, I finally get it through my fat head that this time he is
>>>>> right and I am wrong, and I tell him how great he is.
>>>>> I know all guide dogs do intelligent disobedience, but do they all
>>>>> insist when their silly user persists in wrong-headedness?  Or is this 
>>>>> a
>>>>> special feature I need to remember to mention, when it comes time for
>>>>> New Dog? Actually, I did just tell Seeing Eye to put it in my record
>>>>> that I need a dog who insists, but I wonder if it really goes without
>>>>> saying.  But then, some things I think go without saying apparently
>>>>> don't.
>>>>> So, do all guide dogs insist in disobedience, even in small things 
>>>>> like
>>>>> the right place to cross the street?
>>>>> Tracy
>
>
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>
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