[nagdu] Intelligent disobedience

Larry D. Keeler lkeeler at comcast.net
Wed Jan 30 23:43:19 UTC 2013 

I sure do Cindy!  Every day!  When crossing streets, taking new routes, and 
just generally prowling around!  In short, every time we go out!  If I try 
to cross a street when cars are coming or if swtuff is on the sidewalk, 
holly stops until I check it out or wait for the car to pass!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Intelligent disobedience


>I don't think it is something you necessarily test. At the Seeing Eye, they 
>showed it to us by taking us to a subway platform and telling us to walk 
>forward. Before the dog would get to the edge, it turned left or right and 
>started up or down the track.
>
> CL
>
> On Jan 30, 2013, at 3:16 PM, Chasity Jackson wrote:
>
>> What kind of places have you all used to test your dog's level of 
>> intelligent disobedience?
>>
>> This topic has made me reflect on a past experience I had with my first 
>> guide dog Vanda. We were on the college campus, and I was unaware of the 
>> fact that they had dug up the pavement and there was a huge thirty foot 
>> deep hole there. They were doing some construction outside. I was trying 
>> to cross that driveway and she wouldn't let me, she was very insistant on 
>> it too. She threw her body in front of me and then spun to the right, as 
>> the hole was to our left. I had never seen her so insistant on getting 
>> her way and doing it the way she wanted, and now I know why.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 2:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Intelligent disobedience
>>
>>
>>> I think intelligent disobedience is more closely related to confidence 
>>> level than anything else.  A dog basically needs to have the emotional 
>>> ability to say no without crumbling.
>>>
>>> Monty is what I'd call very high on the obedience chart.  He very much 
>>> wants to please his people and will go above and beyond to accomplish 
>>> this.  He is also decently high on the confidence scale.  If I want to 
>>> do something dumb he will stick to his decision even after repeated 
>>> attempts to get him to do things my way.  It doesn't seem to bother him 
>>> too much as long as I don't correct or raise my voice.  So I've learned 
>>> when we are standing on the corner and he is refusing to go some 
>>> particular way I need to offer some different options until we can agree 
>>> on one.
>>>
>>> Belle is not a very obedient dog and is much lower in confidence.  With 
>>> her I got one chance to figure it out.  If she stopped and I didn't take 
>>> enough time to figure out what was going on and told her to continue, 
>>> she would.  sometimes that was not so great for me.  I don't know that 
>>> she's a good example though.  She was never really cut out to be a guide 
>>> dog.
>>>
>>> Tia, my first dog from way back when, was obedient when it suited her, 
>>> but was very confident.  She very much wanted to do things her way all 
>>> the time.  If I suggested some dumb thing she'd wait ever so patiently 
>>> until I saw things her way.  She never gave in to my stupidity.
>>>
>>> It's an interesting discussion.  Thanks for bringing it up.
>>> Julie
>>>
>>> On 1/30/2013 2:16 PM, Tami Jarvis wrote:
>>>> Tracy,
>>>>
>>>> That's something I've wondered about off and on about guide dogs in 
>>>> general. They're all trained in intelligent disobedience... But how 
>>>> stubborn is the average guide dog about applying that training?
>>>>
>>>> Mitzi is stubborn and has developed a number of ways of letting me 
>>>> know -- correction: trying to let me know -- that I am being a complete 
>>>> dumb head and would get myself hurt or done in if she didn't go to 
>>>> extraordinary lengths to protect me from myself. /lol/ She is also very 
>>>> good at saying, "I told you so," once I figure it out.
>>>>
>>>> So now I'm really spoiled, of course. But as Mitzi moves toward the 
>>>> 7-year mark, I do find myself wondering about that trait of hers. I 
>>>> think the major reason I want to do some basic guide dog training with 
>>>> DD's pup Zay is because she is naturally a more obedient type of dog, 
>>>> in the classical concept of obedience. Very eager to please, etc., etc. 
>>>> So I want to find out, using very safe places, if she can take the 
>>>> basic skills and develop some general responsibility, then bump it up 
>>>> to the next level and refuse to let me walk into the street or 
>>>> something. Hm...
>>>>
>>>> My secret fear for the future is that I will inadvertently end up with 
>>>> a guide dog that does what I tell it to, just because I tell it to... 
>>>> Probably because of all the people who take it upon themselves to 
>>>> question Mitzi's fitness (or even ask smart questions in a sensible 
>>>> way) as a guide, since they thought guide dogs are supposed to be 
>>>> totally obedient. /lol/ I used to get really annoyed by that sort of 
>>>> thing, but now I just stare at whoever might bring it up these days in 
>>>> horror, then burst out laughing. OMG! I would be soooo doomed! /lol/
>>>>
>>>> Tami
>>>>
>>>> On 01/30/2013 10:02 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>>>>> Sometimes I get mixed up about exactly where I am, and tell Ben to do
>>>>> something dumb, like turn to cross the street before we get to the
>>>>> crosswalk.  He says No, and I insist, and he insists back, and, after 
>>>>> 2
>>>>> or 3 times, I finally get it through my fat head that this time he is
>>>>> right and I am wrong, and I tell him how great he is.
>>>>> I know all guide dogs do intelligent disobedience, but do they all
>>>>> insist when their silly user persists in wrong-headedness?  Or is this 
>>>>> a
>>>>> special feature I need to remember to mention, when it comes time for
>>>>> New Dog? Actually, I did just tell Seeing Eye to put it in my record
>>>>> that I need a dog who insists, but I wonder if it really goes without
>>>>> saying.  But then, some things I think go without saying apparently 
>>>>> don't.
>>>>> So, do all guide dogs insist in disobedience, even in small things 
>>>>> like
>>>>> the right place to cross the street?
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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