[nagdu] Intelligent disobedience

Wed Jan 30 21:27:15 UTC 2013

I think Julie nailed it. My thoughts were along similar lines. Though i kinda was thinking, it's one of those things that comes in degrees. Any dog that's suited to be a guide will intelligently disobey. If it's dangerous to go into a hole, they'll stop. If a car cuts you off, they'll stop or back up or not step off the curb or whatever. The degree, I think, is in how much they'll push back if you argue. In other words, you insist on going forward anyway. Where some dogs will plant their feet and not go, if they really really believe they're right, others might argue a bit, then kind of say, "OK boss, your funeral", then when you fall in a hole, trip over a bench, or what have you, very smugly say, "See? I told you so." 

I was thinking about this some yesterday. Because of our lousy weather, Leno and I haven't been out of the house much, much less have we been working. That was awful. OK, so like, I haven't had Leno out for a good walk in a couple weeks. No worries, he was still top notch on our trip yesterday. But he was *very* cautious. If he thought that there wasn't a lot of space because of melting snow, or something was blocking our path, he slows way way down. And he won't go faster until such time as he decides it's safe to do so. Moreover, at the curbs where there were puddles or big piles of melting snow and ice, he would very slowly, very carefully tsp off to alert me that I should also be careful. Chet was a lot more full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes. 
--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY

On Jan 30, 2013, at 3:51 PM, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:

> I think intelligent disobedience is more closely related to confidence level than anything else.  A dog basically needs to have the emotional ability to say no without crumbling.
> 
> Monty is what I'd call very high on the obedience chart.  He very much wants to please his people and will go above and beyond to accomplish this.  He is also decently high on the confidence scale.  If I want to do something dumb he will stick to his decision even after repeated attempts to get him to do things my way.  It doesn't seem to bother him too much as long as I don't correct or raise my voice.  So I've learned when we are standing on the corner and he is refusing to go some particular way I need to offer some different options until we can agree on one.
> 
> Belle is not a very obedient dog and is much lower in confidence.  With her I got one chance to figure it out.  If she stopped and I didn't take enough time to figure out what was going on and told her to continue, she would.  sometimes that was not so great for me.  I don't know that she's a good example though.  She was never really cut out to be a guide dog.
> 
> Tia, my first dog from way back when, was obedient when it suited her, but was very confident.  She very much wanted to do things her way all the time.  If I suggested some dumb thing she'd wait ever so patiently until I saw things her way.  She never gave in to my stupidity.
> 
> It's an interesting discussion.  Thanks for bringing it up.
> Julie
> 
> On 1/30/2013 2:16 PM, Tami Jarvis wrote:
>> Tracy,
>> 
>> That's something I've wondered about off and on about guide dogs in general. They're all trained in intelligent disobedience... But how stubborn is the average guide dog about applying that training?
>> 
>> Mitzi is stubborn and has developed a number of ways of letting me know -- correction: trying to let me know -- that I am being a complete dumb head and would get myself hurt or done in if she didn't go to extraordinary lengths to protect me from myself. /lol/ She is also very good at saying, "I told you so," once I figure it out.
>> 
>> So now I'm really spoiled, of course. But as Mitzi moves toward the 7-year mark, I do find myself wondering about that trait of hers. I think the major reason I want to do some basic guide dog training with DD's pup Zay is because she is naturally a more obedient type of dog, in the classical concept of obedience. Very eager to please, etc., etc. So I want to find out, using very safe places, if she can take the basic skills and develop some general responsibility, then bump it up to the next level and refuse to let me walk into the street or something. Hm...
>> 
>> My secret fear for the future is that I will inadvertently end up with a guide dog that does what I tell it to, just because I tell it to... Probably because of all the people who take it upon themselves to question Mitzi's fitness (or even ask smart questions in a sensible way) as a guide, since they thought guide dogs are supposed to be totally obedient. /lol/ I used to get really annoyed by that sort of thing, but now I just stare at whoever might bring it up these days in horror, then burst out laughing. OMG! I would be soooo doomed! /lol/
>> 
>> Tami
>> 
>> On 01/30/2013 10:02 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>>> Sometimes I get mixed up about exactly where I am, and tell Ben to do
>>> something dumb, like turn to cross the street before we get to the
>>> crosswalk.  He says No, and I insist, and he insists back, and, after 2
>>> or 3 times, I finally get it through my fat head that this time he is
>>> right and I am wrong, and I tell him how great he is.
>>> I know all guide dogs do intelligent disobedience, but do they all
>>> insist when their silly user persists in wrong-headedness?  Or is this a
>>> special feature I need to remember to mention, when it comes time for
>>> New Dog? Actually, I did just tell Seeing Eye to put it in my record
>>> that I need a dog who insists, but I wonder if it really goes without
>>> saying.  But then, some things I think go without saying apparently don't.
>>> So, do all guide dogs insist in disobedience, even in small things like
>>> the right place to cross the street?
>>> Tracy
>>> 
>>> 
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