[nagdu] Intelligent disobedience

Thu Jan 31 14:07:17 UTC 2013

Hi all,
My name is Becky Sabo .  I have not posted in a long time.  I have a yellow
lab from Guiding Eyes for the Blind.  Her name is Hakia and she is my fourth
dog.
Yesterday she was totally off she wanted to play non stop yesterday and was
just high strong all day.  It did not help I was at school and she had to
sit in class and she was release there and she is usually good just to lie
down.  I have only had her since August.  She was really testing me
yesterday.  There is a lot of ice here in Colorado and she has been going
slow but not a lot to run and play.  Trying to fine a place to do that.  Any
good idea on that'
I wanted to go forward and she just stopped than I figure out I could not go
forward so I gave her a command to go right than we went.  Each dog decides
what they want to do.  Also when I wanted to cross the tracks for the light
rail she would not do it and I do not no for sure so I had to get some help
from someone than she did it.
Becky and Hakia

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 2:27 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Intelligent disobedience

I think Julie nailed it. My thoughts were along similar lines. Though i
kinda was thinking, it's one of those things that comes in degrees. Any dog
that's suited to be a guide will intelligently disobey. If it's dangerous to
go into a hole, they'll stop. If a car cuts you off, they'll stop or back up
or not step off the curb or whatever. The degree, I think, is in how much
they'll push back if you argue. In other words, you insist on going forward
anyway. Where some dogs will plant their feet and not go, if they really
really believe they're right, others might argue a bit, then kind of say,
"OK boss, your funeral", then when you fall in a hole, trip over a bench, or
what have you, very smugly say, "See? I told you so." 

I was thinking about this some yesterday. Because of our lousy weather, Leno
and I haven't been out of the house much, much less have we been working.
That was awful. OK, so like, I haven't had Leno out for a good walk in a
couple weeks. No worries, he was still top notch on our trip yesterday. But
he was *very* cautious. If he thought that there wasn't a lot of space
because of melting snow, or something was blocking our path, he slows way
way down. And he won't go faster until such time as he decides it's safe to
do so. Moreover, at the curbs where there were puddles or big piles of
melting snow and ice, he would very slowly, very carefully tsp off to alert
me that I should also be careful. Chet was a lot more full speed ahead and
damn the torpedoes. 
--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY

On Jan 30, 2013, at 3:51 PM, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:

> I think intelligent disobedience is more closely related to confidence
level than anything else.  A dog basically needs to have the emotional
ability to say no without crumbling.
> 
> Monty is what I'd call very high on the obedience chart.  He very much
wants to please his people and will go above and beyond to accomplish this.
He is also decently high on the confidence scale.  If I want to do something
dumb he will stick to his decision even after repeated attempts to get him
to do things my way.  It doesn't seem to bother him too much as long as I
don't correct or raise my voice.  So I've learned when we are standing on
the corner and he is refusing to go some particular way I need to offer some
different options until we can agree on one.
> 
> Belle is not a very obedient dog and is much lower in confidence.  With
her I got one chance to figure it out.  If she stopped and I didn't take
enough time to figure out what was going on and told her to continue, she
would.  sometimes that was not so great for me.  I don't know that she's a
good example though.  She was never really cut out to be a guide dog.
> 
> Tia, my first dog from way back when, was obedient when it suited her, but
was very confident.  She very much wanted to do things her way all the time.
If I suggested some dumb thing she'd wait ever so patiently until I saw
things her way.  She never gave in to my stupidity.
> 
> It's an interesting discussion.  Thanks for bringing it up.
> Julie
> 
> On 1/30/2013 2:16 PM, Tami Jarvis wrote:
>> Tracy,
>> 
>> That's something I've wondered about off and on about guide dogs in
general. They're all trained in intelligent disobedience... But how stubborn
is the average guide dog about applying that training?
>> 
>> Mitzi is stubborn and has developed a number of ways of letting me know
-- correction: trying to let me know -- that I am being a complete dumb head
and would get myself hurt or done in if she didn't go to extraordinary
lengths to protect me from myself. /lol/ She is also very good at saying, "I
told you so," once I figure it out.
>> 
>> So now I'm really spoiled, of course. But as Mitzi moves toward the
7-year mark, I do find myself wondering about that trait of hers. I think
the major reason I want to do some basic guide dog training with DD's pup
Zay is because she is naturally a more obedient type of dog, in the
classical concept of obedience. Very eager to please, etc., etc. So I want
to find out, using very safe places, if she can take the basic skills and
develop some general responsibility, then bump it up to the next level and
refuse to let me walk into the street or something. Hm...
>> 
>> My secret fear for the future is that I will inadvertently end up 
>> with a guide dog that does what I tell it to, just because I tell it 
>> to... Probably because of all the people who take it upon themselves 
>> to question Mitzi's fitness (or even ask smart questions in a 
>> sensible way) as a guide, since they thought guide dogs are supposed 
>> to be totally obedient. /lol/ I used to get really annoyed by that 
>> sort of thing, but now I just stare at whoever might bring it up 
>> these days in horror, then burst out laughing. OMG! I would be soooo 
>> doomed! /lol/
>> 
>> Tami
>> 
>> On 01/30/2013 10:02 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>>> Sometimes I get mixed up about exactly where I am, and tell Ben to 
>>> do something dumb, like turn to cross the street before we get to 
>>> the crosswalk.  He says No, and I insist, and he insists back, and, 
>>> after 2 or 3 times, I finally get it through my fat head that this 
>>> time he is right and I am wrong, and I tell him how great he is.
>>> I know all guide dogs do intelligent disobedience, but do they all 
>>> insist when their silly user persists in wrong-headedness?  Or is 
>>> this a special feature I need to remember to mention, when it comes 
>>> time for New Dog? Actually, I did just tell Seeing Eye to put it in 
>>> my record that I need a dog who insists, but I wonder if it really 
>>> goes without saying.  But then, some things I think go without saying
apparently don't.
>>> So, do all guide dogs insist in disobedience, even in small things 
>>> like the right place to cross the street?
>>> Tracy
>>> 
>>> 
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> 
> 
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