[nagdu] Intelligent disobedience

Thu Jan 31 18:55:24 UTC 2013

Hi there,
Glad you are writing again.
while there is ice and snow, I wouldn't take on playing until you 
become more of a team.
You sure don't want to fall.
if you have a friend or family where you can let the dog play in the 
yard, with watching, that would be better.
I would keep the working side just for that.
What part of Denver do you live in?
I loved the light rail, glad it is still going.
wishing you the best.
Original message:
> Hi all,
> My name is Becky Sabo .  I have not posted in a long time.  I have a yellow
> lab from Guiding Eyes for the Blind.  Her name is Hakia and she is my fourth
> dog.
> Yesterday she was totally off she wanted to play non stop yesterday and was
> just high strong all day.  It did not help I was at school and she had to
> sit in class and she was release there and she is usually good just to lie
> down.  I have only had her since August.  She was really testing me
> yesterday.  There is a lot of ice here in Colorado and she has been going
> slow but not a lot to run and play.  Trying to fine a place to do that.  Any
> good idea on that'
> I wanted to go forward and she just stopped than I figure out I could not go
> forward so I gave her a command to go right than we went.  Each dog decides
> what they want to do.  Also when I wanted to cross the tracks for the light
> rail she would not do it and I do not no for sure so I had to get some help
> from someone than she did it.
> Becky and Hakia

> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 2:27 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Intelligent disobedience

> I think Julie nailed it. My thoughts were along similar lines. Though i
> kinda was thinking, it's one of those things that comes in degrees. Any dog
> that's suited to be a guide will intelligently disobey. If it's dangerous to
> go into a hole, they'll stop. If a car cuts you off, they'll stop or back up
> or not step off the curb or whatever. The degree, I think, is in how much
> they'll push back if you argue. In other words, you insist on going forward
> anyway. Where some dogs will plant their feet and not go, if they really
> really believe they're right, others might argue a bit, then kind of say,
> "OK boss, your funeral", then when you fall in a hole, trip over a bench, or
> what have you, very smugly say, "See? I told you so."

> I was thinking about this some yesterday. Because of our lousy weather, Leno
> and I haven't been out of the house much, much less have we been working.
> That was awful. OK, so like, I haven't had Leno out for a good walk in a
> couple weeks. No worries, he was still top notch on our trip yesterday. But
> he was *very* cautious. If he thought that there wasn't a lot of space
> because of melting snow, or something was blocking our path, he slows way
> way down. And he won't go faster until such time as he decides it's safe to
> do so. Moreover, at the curbs where there were puddles or big piles of
> melting snow and ice, he would very slowly, very carefully tsp off to alert
> me that I should also be careful. Chet was a lot more full speed ahead and
> damn the torpedoes.
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY


> On Jan 30, 2013, at 3:51 PM, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:

>> I think intelligent disobedience is more closely related to confidence
> level than anything else.  A dog basically needs to have the emotional
> ability to say no without crumbling.

>> Monty is what I'd call very high on the obedience chart.  He very much
> wants to please his people and will go above and beyond to accomplish this.
> He is also decently high on the confidence scale.  If I want to do something
> dumb he will stick to his decision even after repeated attempts to get him
> to do things my way.  It doesn't seem to bother him too much as long as I
> don't correct or raise my voice.  So I've learned when we are standing on
> the corner and he is refusing to go some particular way I need to offer some
> different options until we can agree on one.

>> Belle is not a very obedient dog and is much lower in confidence.  With
> her I got one chance to figure it out.  If she stopped and I didn't take
> enough time to figure out what was going on and told her to continue, she
> would.  sometimes that was not so great for me.  I don't know that she's a
> good example though.  She was never really cut out to be a guide dog.

>> Tia, my first dog from way back when, was obedient when it suited her, but
> was very confident.  She very much wanted to do things her way all the time.
> If I suggested some dumb thing she'd wait ever so patiently until I saw
> things her way.  She never gave in to my stupidity.

>> It's an interesting discussion.  Thanks for bringing it up.
>> Julie

>> On 1/30/2013 2:16 PM, Tami Jarvis wrote:
>>> Tracy,

>>> That's something I've wondered about off and on about guide dogs in
> general. They're all trained in intelligent disobedience... But how stubborn
> is the average guide dog about applying that training?

>>> Mitzi is stubborn and has developed a number of ways of letting me know
> -- correction: trying to let me know -- that I am being a complete dumb head
> and would get myself hurt or done in if she didn't go to extraordinary
> lengths to protect me from myself. /lol/ She is also very good at saying, "I
> told you so," once I figure it out.

>>> So now I'm really spoiled, of course. But as Mitzi moves toward the
> 7-year mark, I do find myself wondering about that trait of hers. I think
> the major reason I want to do some basic guide dog training with DD's pup
> Zay is because she is naturally a more obedient type of dog, in the
> classical concept of obedience. Very eager to please, etc., etc. So I want
> to find out, using very safe places, if she can take the basic skills and
> develop some general responsibility, then bump it up to the next level and
> refuse to let me walk into the street or something. Hm...

>>> My secret fear for the future is that I will inadvertently end up
>>> with a guide dog that does what I tell it to, just because I tell it
>>> to... Probably because of all the people who take it upon themselves
>>> to question Mitzi's fitness (or even ask smart questions in a
>>> sensible way) as a guide, since they thought guide dogs are supposed
>>> to be totally obedient. /lol/ I used to get really annoyed by that
>>> sort of thing, but now I just stare at whoever might bring it up
>>> these days in horror, then burst out laughing. OMG! I would be soooo
>>> doomed! /lol/

>>> Tami

>>> On 01/30/2013 10:02 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>>>> Sometimes I get mixed up about exactly where I am, and tell Ben to
>>>> do something dumb, like turn to cross the street before we get to
>>>> the crosswalk.  He says No, and I insist, and he insists back, and,
>>>> after 2 or 3 times, I finally get it through my fat head that this
>>>> time he is right and I am wrong, and I tell him how great he is.
>>>> I know all guide dogs do intelligent disobedience, but do they all
>>>> insist when their silly user persists in wrong-headedness?  Or is
>>>> this a special feature I need to remember to mention, when it comes
>>>> time for New Dog? Actually, I did just tell Seeing Eye to put it in
>>>> my record that I need a dog who insists, but I wonder if it really
>>>> goes without saying.  But then, some things I think go without saying
> apparently don't.
>>>> So, do all guide dogs insist in disobedience, even in small things
>>>> like the right place to cross the street?
>>>> Tracy


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