[nagdu] Quality of Training was pilot dogs traffic checks

Larry D. Keeler lkeeler at comcast.net
Fri Jul 12 14:44:07 UTC 2013


Figured that but I always find it appropriate to ask anyway. Thanks again!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "National Association of Guide Dog Users" <blind411 at verizon.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Quality of Training was pilot dogs traffic checks


> Larry,
> Since this is a publicly archived list, anything published here is
> available to anyone who wishes it! Feel free to use it as you see fit!
>
> Marion
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D. Keeler
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 9:30 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Quality of Training was pilot dogs traffic checks
>
> Excellently put Marion! May I keep this to refer to and use in helping
> explain why we need our divission?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "National Association of Guide Dog Users" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 8:20 AM
> Subject: [nagdu] Quality of Training was pilot dogs traffic checks
>
>
>> Dear All,
>> I believe that, for the most part, all the training programs do a good
>> job as it pertains to the quality of training. From my personal point
>> of view, the differences I observe are with the philosophies of the
>> programs and the resulting manner in which consumers are viewed and
>> treated. The purpose of the Guide Dog Consumers' Bill of Rights is to
>> outline certain standards the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> and the National Federation of the Blind believe to be dignified,
>> respectful  treatment of blind consumers. It gives blind consumers
>> considering a training program elements to consider when evaluating a
>> training program. Whether a training program agrees with the Bill of
>> Rights or not matters less to me than affording consumers a tool to
>> measure how a training program measures up.
>> In a market driven economy, it is best for those who provide goods
>> and/or services to listen to their consumers and meet their needs. As
>> the collective voice of blind consumers, we believe it is our
>> responsibility to inform the public about what we believe is a good
>> service by establishing reasonable standards for measuring what
>> quality training involves. The Bill of Rights is our operational
>> definition of this abstract, subjective term.
>> As consumers, it is our right to ask training programs how they
>> measure up and our responsibility to demand they modify their
>> policies, practices, and procedures to align themselves with what we
>> believe is dignified treatment.
>> It is my goal over the next year to publish several articles in the
>> Braille Monitor and on our Harness Up! Blog on this topic. As we shift
>> the paradigm of the blind from beneficiaries to consumers of guide dog
>> training programs, those who raise millions of dollars from the public
>> on our behalf will either need to realign their philosophies or accept
>> the consequences of not doing so.
>> All guide dog training programs have four stakeholders: Consumers,
>> volunteers, donors, and employees. Some programs seem to consider the
>> most important stakeholder to be the donor. Some of these programs
>> solicit donations by telling donors how important their work is and,
>> in so many words,  how the plight of the blind is made better by their
>> services. Such an approach may serve the training program employing
>> this tactic by making the public feel sorry for us and give money to
>> improve our plight, but what does it do to us as blind people? How
>> does it impact our everyday lives?
>> Is
>> it partly responsible for the misconceptions we face from the public
>> many of us on this list have complained about? Is it partly
>> responsible for our high unemployment rate? Do the ways in which we
>> are portrayed by the so-called experts in the field of blindness have
>> an impact on our lives? These are the sorts of questions I hope to
>> address in the future in the effort to continue shifting the paradigm.
>> Your comments are respectfully requested!
>>
>> Fraternally  yours,
>>
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>> National Federation of the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789 (Office)
>> 888-NAGDU411 (Hotline
>> President at nagdu.org
>> www.nagdu.org
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Danielle
>> Antoine
>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:03 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>> Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>
>> But, could it be that they don't know or can't tell the difference
>> because they have never had any other experience? Are there any other
>> grads who have gone to Pilot after another program on hear? I will say
>> that I've been on a few non-school specific lists and as stated
>> previously they all seem happy with there training. this is very
>> interesting and I don't really have much info nor have I seen any
>> working teams from there so I'd like to hear more about Pilot Dogs.
>> that's what I've always heard though that they didn't do planned
>> traffic checks. Kind of worrisome!
>>
>> Danielle
>>
>> On 7/10/13, rhonda cruz <rhondaprincess at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>  hello may, keeps me safe every time we travel together,  she has
>>> done many traffic  checks,  and we work hard to.
>>>  i feel pilot did a good job at mamatching us.
>>>
>>> On Jul 8, 2013, at 12:58 PM, Howard J. Levine wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree if a xchool is going to cut back on traffic checks what else
>>>> are they cutting back on. You want to know how your guide dog is
>>>> going ot react to problem and keep you safe.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
>>>> Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 3:49 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>> Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>
>>>> Rebecca.
>>>> This may be an issue of not knowing rather than not caring. I
>>>> believe traffic checks are an important part of guide dog work and,
>>>> to the best of my knowledge, Pilot is the only guide dog training
>>>> program that does not include them in their training! If Pilot
>>>> consumers knew how important they were and that everyone else gets
>>>> what they do not, perhaps they would speak up. Then again, they may
>>>> be met with the same sort of irrational excuses other training
>>>> programs offer us and we are expected to accept without question!
>>>> For instance, Pilot may assert that traffic checks are unnecessary
>>>> and their consumers are expected to accept this without question. If
>>>> they are not important, why does every other program put such a
>>>> major emphasis on them?
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Star
>>>> Gazer
>>>> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 12:03 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>> Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>
>>>> Steve,
>>>> The Pilot grads don't seem to mind this though. So why would they
>>>> speak up?
>>>> To them, it isn't a problem. To me, it's a deal breaker.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steven
>>>> Johnson
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 7:07 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>> Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>
>>>> Deanna, you make an excellent point.  Having a controlled traffic
>>>> check can help the student get prepared for what is inevitable.
>>>> Whether it is a gas powered car, quiet car, bicycle, skateboard; we
>>>> can begin to learn and feel how our dogs react to those situations.
>>>> Sometimes they are slight, and sometimes, very apparent checks as we
>>>> all know.  What would be ideal is for the Pilot grads to step up and
>>>> simply make this request.  The more they hear from, the more likely
>>>> they might listen, and a potential change could be made.
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Deanna
>>>> Lewis
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 10:43 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>> Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>
>>>> I am sorry, but I would rather have a trained professional driving a
>>>> car and testing my dog and I, than I would to have a random stranger
>>>> who is not paying attention come close to, or actually hitting us.
>>>> Drivers nowadays are so careless and they are always on their cell
>>>> phones, texting, putting on makeup, and so forth. They just do not
>>>> pay attention to pedestrians.
>>>> I strongly believe that planned traffic checks are an essential part
>>>> of guide dog training.
>>>> Deanna and Pascal
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darla
>>>> Rogers
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 11:30 AM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>> Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>
>>>> Dear Chantel,
>>>>
>>>> That is totally ridiculous; I wouldn't want a dog who freaked out
>>>> with artificial traffic checks.
>>>> Darla & Handsome Huck
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel
>>>> Cuddemi
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 11:39 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>> Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>
>>>> Guys,
>>>>
>>>> Students and dogs were freaked out by the artificial traffic checks
>>>> set up by Pilot. I wasn't aware that the dogs go through artificial
>>>> traffic checks before we got them.
>>>>
>>>> On 7/2/13, Larry D. Keeler <lkeeler at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>> That I didn't know! I just know that between Holly and I we don't
>>>>> have any probblems! She'll stop whebn cars are coming and go around
>>>>> those that park in the middle of the street.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Snow White Dove" <jlperdue3 at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 6:19 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>>> Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Ava,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pilot dogs does traffic checks while the dogs are in their
>>>>>> training period
>>>>>>
>>>>>> with the trainers, before they get to you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You're right though, there are plenty of opportunities for the dog
>>>>>> to show
>>>>>>
>>>>>> you it'll stop for traffic during your training itself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jenny
>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2013, at 3:16 AM, avapup.7 at gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've heard this before, that pilot dogs doesn't do traffic checks.
>>>>>>> As I am considering this program for after my Cocoa girl retires
>>>>>>> I'm wondering
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> if it's maybe a difference in terminology? I mean, their dogs are
>>>>>>> trained
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to stop if a car approaches, right? Like, intelligent disobedience?
>>>>>>> But is it that pilot dogs doesn't set up artificial situations
>>>>>>> for their students where they have a car driven by a staff member
>>>>>>> to test them? I'd
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> think that in Columbus there would be plenty of real life traffic
>>>>>>> checks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> without setting them up like other schools do! Ugh, Columbus
>>>>>>> traffic! Do
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have it right or am I thinking of something different? Thanks!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ava and Cocoa
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 2013, at 1:24 PM, rhonda cruz
>>>>>>> <rhondaprincess at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the staff at pilot are good.
>>>>>>>> maybe if we got more grads from pilot they would change there
>>>>>>>> minds, about going to a nfb convention, but i will never know,
>>>>>>>> if i just ask.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 2013, at 7:04 AM, Star Gazer wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sounds like the trainer at Pilot wasn't briefed properly before
>>>>>>>>> giving
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>>> presentation.
>>>>>>>>> Agree with Marsha, the folks in charge at Pilot could have
>>>>>>>>> calmed her down and used it as a learning opportunity.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>> Marsha Drenth
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 3:40 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Update: Training Programs at NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> marion,
>>>>>>>>> When did this happen? I am assuming before you took the 
>>>>>>>>> presidency.
>>>>>>>>> Althought there has been those members around since those
>>>>>>>>> time,, before
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> took the presidency, the NAGDU is certainly different from
>>>>>>>>> those times
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> too.
>>>>>>>>> its unfortunate that Pilot feels that way, that they feel they
>>>>>>>>> can not participate. I wonder if its graduates urged them to do
>>>>>>>>> so, if they would. I do feel like that is a cop-out.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Marsha drenth
>>>>>>>>> Sent with my IPhone
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:53 PM, "National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>> <blind411 at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Rhonda,
>>>>>>>>>> Pilot has not been to an NFB convention since I have been an
>>>>>>>>>> officer. When I spoke with Jay Gray to invite him, he said
>>>>>>>>>> Pilot would
>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>>> attend another convention because it was his opinion one of
>>>>>>>>>> his trainers
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed at a meeting. I don't remember the incident, but
>>>>>>>>>> he said the trainer was asked about traffic checks and she
>>>>>>>>>> said Pilot did not do
>>>>>>>>> traffic
>>>>>>>>>> checks. Apparently, the president at the time was very
>>>>>>>>>> surprised and exclaimed, "You don't do traffic checks?"
>>>>>>>>>> According to someone else that
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>> there, this is how it happened and a rather strong discussion
>>>>>>>>>> of the importance of traffic checks followed. I told Mr. Gray
>>>>>>>>>> that I felt it
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> reasonable question and couldn't imagine not doing traffic
>>>>>>>>>> checks while assuring him that, in spite of the fact that our
>>>>>>>>>> members can be very assertive, I would never allow anyone to
>>>>>>>>>> insult another nor treat anyone with disrespect or in an
>>>>>>>>>> undignified manner. Pilot has still not chosen to attend our
>>>>>>>>>> conventions, though!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>
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