[nagdu] "Consumer"

Star Gazer pickrellrebecca at gmail.com
Fri Jul 12 20:48:10 UTC 2013


I agree with Tracey, I have always thought of the NFB as a civil rights
organization. Wasn't it modeled after NAACP? 
That being said, I struggle with the consumer language. Maybe if "consumer
of guide dog services" was used, I'd feel better. 
I like customer, I do get Tracey's visual with a knife and fork when I
encounter the "consumer" label. 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 2:42 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] "Consumer"

Hi Marion.
The NFB may call itself a consumer organization, but I usually call it a
civil rights organization.  I do not care for being called a "consumer" in
any context.  Somehow, I have been demoted from respected citizen, or even
valued customer, to a mere consumer, and I don't like it.  And, when it
comes to being called a "guide dog consumer", I can't help picturing myself
with a knife and fork, sitting down to a plate of dog.  Yuk!
I prefer customer, client, patron, student, graduate, alumna--any of those
are preferrable to "consumer" in my book.
I realize this may go against what has become common usage, but, as I said,
I don't like the common usage, and am doing what I can to buck the trend.
Tracy

> Tracy,
> 	I would be open to hearing more about your feelings on the term 
> "consumer". I have heard people express their views in terms of 
> consuming
> (eating) guide dogs; however, that is a limited view of the term. The 
> NFB refers to itself as a consumer organization in the sense of the 
> economic definition as "a person or organization that uses a commodity or
service".
> From an economics point of view, consumerism is the most powerful 
> method of effecting change and collective consumerism exponentially 
> increases that power.
> 	During our annual meeting on July 3, we heard several training 
> programs assert that the diversity of policies and practices between 
> thos available offered consumers choice. Of course, for such choice to 
> be effectively enacted upon, more information needs to be available. 
> For instance, one training program asserts they transfer ownership 
> after six months; however, their contract also reserves the right to 
> repossess the dog at any time and for any reason. I'm not sure about 
> anyone else, but I do not consider something that someone else has the 
> right to take away from me without just cause as true ownership. When 
> publicly asked about this provision during the NAGDU meeting, we got 
> no response. So much for informed choice! And what about the practice 
> of surprise visits? I have been advised this same training program 
> regularly calls consumers to advise them they are around the corner 
> and want to visit them within five minutes! This training program may 
> feel as if I am picking on them; however, playing the victim is not 
> very becoming when they treat blind consumers in such a manner! Again, 
> more on this in future articles.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy 
> Carcione
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 9:36 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Quality of Training was pilot dogs traffic checks
>
> Hi Marion.
> I'm both a donor and a "consumer".  (Boy, do I hate that term 
> "consumer"!) I know that my dog enhances my life considerably.  I 
> think there's a fine line between expressing that truth, and the "hero 
> dogs leading me out of my lonely darkness", sort of thing.  It's easy 
> for publicity/fundraising to stray over that line, sometimes.  It 
> annoys me a lot when it does, but I can see how it could be tricky. I 
> think TSE usually does a pretty good job, by letting people talk about 
> what the dog does for them, but it's not perfect.
> I don't think fundraising would be very effective that said something 
> like "I can use my dog or my cane to get where I want to go, but my 
> dog is helpful is some situations." I wonder what you think it should 
> say?  I know drippy goo when I hear it, but it can't be too blase, 
> either. I look forward to your articles.
> Tracy
>
>> Dear All,
>> 	I believe that, for the most part, all the training programs do a 
>> good job as it pertains to the quality of training. From my personal 
>> point of view, the differences I observe are with the philosophies of 
>> the programs and the resulting manner in which consumers are viewed 
>> and treated. The purpose of the Guide Dog Consumers' Bill of Rights 
>> is to outline certain standards the National Association of Guide Dog 
>> Users and the National Federation of the Blind believe to be 
>> dignified, respectful  treatment of blind consumers. It gives blind 
>> consumers considering a training program elements to consider when 
>> evaluating a training program. Whether a training program agrees with 
>> the Bill of Rights or not matters less to me than affording consumers 
>> a tool to measure how a training program measures up.
>> 	In a market driven economy, it is best for those who provide goods 
>> and/or services to listen to their consumers and meet their needs. As 
>> the collective voice of blind consumers, we believe it is our 
>> responsibility to inform the public about what we believe is a good 
>> service by establishing reasonable standards for measuring what 
>> quality training involves. The Bill of Rights is our operational 
>> definition of this abstract, subjective term.
>> As consumers, it is our right to ask training programs how they 
>> measure up and our responsibility to demand they modify their 
>> policies, practices, and procedures to align themselves with what we 
>> believe is dignified treatment.
>> 	It is my goal over the next year to publish several articles in the 
>> Braille Monitor and on our Harness Up! Blog on this topic. As we 
>> shift the paradigm of the blind from beneficiaries to consumers of 
>> guide dog training programs, those who raise millions of dollars from 
>> the public on our behalf will either need to realign their 
>> philosophies or accept the consequences of not doing so.
>> 	All guide dog training programs have four stakeholders: Consumers, 
>> volunteers, donors, and employees. Some programs seem to consider the 
>> most important stakeholder to be the donor. Some of these programs 
>> solicit donations by telling donors how important their work is and, 
>> in so many words,  how the plight of the blind is made better by 
>> their services. Such an approach may serve the training program 
>> employing this tactic by making the public feel sorry for us and give 
>> money to improve our plight, but what does it do to us as blind 
>> people? How does it impact our everyday lives?
>> Is
>> it partly responsible for the misconceptions we face from the public 
>> many of us on this list have complained about? Is it partly 
>> responsible for our high unemployment rate? Do the ways in which we 
>> are portrayed by the so-called experts in the field of blindness have 
>> an impact on our lives? These are the sorts of questions I hope to 
>> address in the future in the effort to continue shifting the paradigm.
>> Your comments are respectfully requested!
>>
>> Fraternally  yours,
>>
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>> National Federation of the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789 (Office)
>> 888-NAGDU411 (Hotline
>> President at nagdu.org
>> www.nagdu.org
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Danielle 
>> Antoine
>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:03 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training 
>> Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>
>> But, could it be that they don't know or can't tell the difference 
>> because they have never had any other experience? Are there any other 
>> grads who have gone to Pilot after another program on hear? I will 
>> say that I've been on a few non-school specific lists and as stated 
>> previously they all seem happy with there training. this is very 
>> interesting and I don't really have much info nor have I seen any 
>> working teams from there so I'd like to hear more about Pilot Dogs.
>> that's what I've always heard though that they didn't do planned 
>> traffic checks. Kind of worrisome!
>>
>> Danielle
>>
>> On 7/10/13, rhonda cruz <rhondaprincess at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>  hello may, keeps me safe every time we travel together,  she has 
>>> done many traffic  checks,  and we work hard to.
>>>  i feel pilot did a good job at mamatching us.
>>>
>>> On Jul 8, 2013, at 12:58 PM, Howard J. Levine wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree if a xchool is going to cut back on traffic checks what 
>>>> else are they cutting back on. You want to know how your guide dog 
>>>> is going ot react to problem and keep you safe.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National 
>>>> Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 3:49 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training 
>>>> Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>
>>>> Rebecca.
>>>> 	This may be an issue of not knowing rather than not caring. I 
>>>> believe traffic checks are an important part of guide dog work and, 
>>>> to the best of my knowledge, Pilot is the only guide dog training 
>>>> program that does not include them in their training! If Pilot 
>>>> consumers knew how important they were and that everyone else gets 
>>>> what they do not, perhaps they would speak up. Then again, they may 
>>>> be met with the same sort of irrational excuses other training 
>>>> programs offer us and we are expected to accept without question!
>>>> For instance, Pilot may assert that traffic checks are unnecessary 
>>>> and their consumers are expected to accept this without question. 
>>>> If they are not important, why does every other program put such a 
>>>> major emphasis on them?
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Star 
>>>> Gazer
>>>> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 12:03 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training 
>>>> Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>
>>>> Steve,
>>>> The Pilot grads don't seem to mind this though. So why would they 
>>>> speak up?
>>>> To them, it isn't a problem. To me, it's a deal breaker.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steven 
>>>> Johnson
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 7:07 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training 
>>>> Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>
>>>> Deanna, you make an excellent point.  Having a controlled traffic 
>>>> check can help the student get prepared for what is inevitable.
>>>> Whether it is a gas powered car, quiet car, bicycle, skateboard; we 
>>>> can begin to learn and feel how our dogs react to those situations.
>>>> Sometimes they are slight, and sometimes, very apparent checks as 
>>>> we all know.  What would be ideal is for the Pilot grads to step up 
>>>> and simply make this request.  The more they hear from, the more 
>>>> likely they might listen, and a potential change could be made.
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Deanna 
>>>> Lewis
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 10:43 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training 
>>>> Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>
>>>> I am sorry, but I would rather have a trained professional driving 
>>>> a car and testing my dog and I, than I would to have a random 
>>>> stranger who is not paying attention come close to, or actually hitting
us.
>>>> Drivers nowadays are so careless and they are always on their cell 
>>>> phones, texting, putting on makeup, and so forth. They just do not 
>>>> pay attention to pedestrians.
>>>> I strongly believe that planned traffic checks are an essential 
>>>> part of guide dog training.
>>>> Deanna and Pascal
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darla 
>>>> Rogers
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 11:30 AM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training 
>>>> Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>
>>>> Dear Chantel,
>>>>
>>>> That is totally ridiculous; I wouldn't want a dog who freaked out 
>>>> with artificial traffic checks.
>>>> Darla & Handsome Huck
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel 
>>>> Cuddemi
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 11:39 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training 
>>>> Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>
>>>> Guys,
>>>>
>>>> Students and dogs were freaked out by the artificial traffic checks 
>>>> set up by Pilot. I wasn't aware that the dogs go through artificial 
>>>> traffic checks before we got them.
>>>>
>>>> On 7/2/13, Larry D. Keeler <lkeeler at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>> That I didn't know! I just know that between Holly and I we don't 
>>>>> have any probblems! She'll stop whebn cars are coming and go 
>>>>> around those that park in the middle of the street.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Snow White Dove" <jlperdue3 at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 6:19 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: 
>>>>> Training Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Ava,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pilot dogs does traffic checks while the dogs are in their 
>>>>>> training period
>>>>>>
>>>>>> with the trainers, before they get to you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You're right though, there are plenty of opportunities for the 
>>>>>> dog to show
>>>>>>
>>>>>> you it'll stop for traffic during your training itself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jenny
>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2013, at 3:16 AM, avapup.7 at gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've heard this before, that pilot dogs doesn't do traffic checks.
>>>>>>> As I am considering this program for after my Cocoa girl retires 
>>>>>>> I'm wondering
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> if it's maybe a difference in terminology? I mean, their dogs 
>>>>>>> are trained
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to stop if a car approaches, right? Like, intelligent disobedience?
>>>>>>> But is it that pilot dogs doesn't set up artificial situations 
>>>>>>> for their students where they have a car driven by a staff 
>>>>>>> member to test them? I'd
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> think that in Columbus there would be plenty of real life 
>>>>>>> traffic checks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> without setting them up like other schools do! Ugh, Columbus 
>>>>>>> traffic! Do
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have it right or am I thinking of something different? Thanks!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ava and Cocoa
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 2013, at 1:24 PM, rhonda cruz 
>>>>>>> <rhondaprincess at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the staff at pilot are good.
>>>>>>>> maybe if we got more grads from pilot they would change there 
>>>>>>>> minds, about going to a nfb convention, but i will never know, 
>>>>>>>> if i just ask.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 2013, at 7:04 AM, Star Gazer wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sounds like the trainer at Pilot wasn't briefed properly 
>>>>>>>>> before giving
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>>> presentation.
>>>>>>>>> Agree with Marsha, the folks in charge at Pilot could have 
>>>>>>>>> calmed her down and used it as a learning opportunity.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>>>>>>>>> Marsha Drenth
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 3:40 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Update: Training Programs at NAGDU 
>>>>>>>>> Meeting
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> marion,
>>>>>>>>> When did this happen? I am assuming before you took the 
>>>>>>>>> presidency.
>>>>>>>>> Althought there has been those members around since those 
>>>>>>>>> time,, before
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> took the presidency, the NAGDU is certainly different from 
>>>>>>>>> those times
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> too.
>>>>>>>>> its unfortunate that Pilot feels that way, that they feel they 
>>>>>>>>> can not participate. I wonder if its graduates urged them to 
>>>>>>>>> do so, if they would. I do feel like that is a cop-out.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Marsha drenth
>>>>>>>>> Sent with my IPhone
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:53 PM, "National Association of Guide 
>>>>>>>>> Dog Users"
>>>>>>>>> <blind411 at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Rhonda,
>>>>>>>>>> Pilot has not been to an NFB convention since I have been an 
>>>>>>>>>> officer. When I spoke with Jay Gray to invite him, he said 
>>>>>>>>>> Pilot would
>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>>> attend another convention because it was his opinion one of 
>>>>>>>>>> his trainers
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed at a meeting. I don't remember the incident, but 
>>>>>>>>>> he said the trainer was asked about traffic checks and she 
>>>>>>>>>> said Pilot did not do
>>>>>>>>> traffic
>>>>>>>>>> checks. Apparently, the president at the time was very 
>>>>>>>>>> surprised and exclaimed, "You don't do traffic checks?"
>>>>>>>>>> According to someone else that
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>> there, this is how it happened and a rather strong discussion 
>>>>>>>>>> of the importance of traffic checks followed. I told Mr. Gray 
>>>>>>>>>> that I felt it
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> reasonable question and couldn't imagine not doing traffic 
>>>>>>>>>> checks while assuring him that, in spite of the fact that our 
>>>>>>>>>> members can be very assertive, I would never allow anyone to 
>>>>>>>>>> insult another nor treat anyone with disrespect or in an 
>>>>>>>>>> undignified manner. Pilot has still not chosen to attend our 
>>>>>>>>>> conventions, though!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>
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